help, lost topic!

[Geo Ghost]

well sorry (sarcasm) i didnt quite like that message you sent. i found it insulting. can u edit it a bit please?

B.s bout the colour you think? all i did was put 1 line in to that pic. look at the pic below. and u cant say i edit that or its bs the colour is messed up. im sorry, but i cant get a joke that gets people rofl! (rolling on floor laughing-more sarcasm) its only a small joke for crying out loud! Its just somthing to put in the >>Of Topic<< forum! so whats wrong with that.

i really get that feeling that it was closed because a few people didnt like it, and wanted to be selfish (no offence ment)

[SHADOW-XIII]

I also found your post very difficult to read since many letters very missing, and you didn't use enough dots and commas.

and you can already read rules (were posted before in this topic)

any arrgue with moderators leads to warning
sarcasm is not also nice ...

if you have anything against what was done to your topic then feel free to send orudge PM with your complainst ...

topic closed (as reading rules, topics about closed/removed topics also leads to warnings, but since you didn't recevie information about removing your topic, you will not receive this one)

[GoneWacko]

I didn't mean to insult anyone. (although I personally am not happy with your behaviour, so I'm
not trying to do the opposite either)

I do think that the stuff about the colors is made up, because every other color on the screenshot is fine.

This may be the Off-Topic forum, but that doesn't mean that the rules do not apply here.

And indeed I didn't like the topic.
But I removed the topic for being in violation of various rules. (in my opinion, that is. But like spaceman-spiff said, if you ask him nicely he might move it back, in which case I will not delete it again, unless it goes over the line _again_)

any argue with moderators leads to warning

I'm not too sure about that statement. There is free-speech, after all. As long as the arguments are reasonable I'm not one to object.

NOTE: I was not the one who closed the topic this time

[SHADOW-XIII]

I reopened topic, but behave please

[Marcel]

Hm, since when remove our mods topics from the forum? A simple lock does not work anymore? When there would be some adult content in it or something like that o.k., but only because some with the power to do so finds it useless? Hell, 80% of the forum topics are useless in my opinion.

any argue with moderators leads to warning

And what is that? When that would be common opinion for all mods here, I surely wouldn´t do it very long here untill I get a permanent ban.

[Colonel32]

any arrgue with moderators leads to warning

As far as I am conserned, you do not deserve the privilege to be a moderator

[Arathorn]

I remember a policy of not deleting topics... long ago, before people needed rules instead of common sense to conduct sensible discussions...

[Hyronymus]

You can always beat the odds of course. To be honest I (again) lost track of what rules were broken. GoneWacko only said some were broken, a clearer indication might be worth the try next time. You can always lock a topic with a final message which contains the indication of broken rules. That's better than just deleting it without notice, also from a learning-by-mistake perspective. Finally, I strongly disagree with the powerplay expressed by Shadow It's ridiculous to say that any disagreement with a mod will lead to a ban. We've been through things like that before and noone got banned. I hope GoneWacko's remark about freedom of speech won't lead us to a new debate about the privileges and duties of moderators.

EDIT: a few people posted in between my reply and to what I was replying to (Marcel's post). Let's not disqualify someone based on one remark but more on the history of that someone.

[Observer]

Hyronymous _o_

well said.

[GoneWacko]

I might have locked the topic instead, yes.

It's more of a reflex to move topics to the spam bin.
I think I developed this some months ago when there was a strange increase of spam and rule violations. (20 locked topics per forum would only clutter it all up, so moving it seemed the sane thing to do)
Plus the fact that spam is always moved to the spam bin for this same reason (it would only clutter up the forums)

but only because some with the power to do so finds it useless

I'm not sure what to say to that.
All I want to say is that I do not feel like I abused my powers or anything like that.
It appears to be a fact that the entire forum has always doubted if I would do well enough as a moderator. I noticed this the very hour I got the promotion. People being like "WTF, GoneWacko is a moderator?!". Thus, every time I move spam or close a topic I fear that people will start screaming Im doing a bad job, similar to what you're suggesting now (abuse of power). Yet still I can clearly 'see' people think I take action without thinking it all through enough, which is _definately_ not true. The lack of trust I notice nearly every day does get me down at times.

As far as I am conserned, you do not deserve the privilege to be a moderator

I do agree that Shadow-XIII's statement about argueing with moderators is a very bad and dangerous one. However there is some truth behind it: If a moderator feels it's time to intervene, then the easiest way to solve things is if people listen to him and, bad choice of words, 'obay' his 'orders'. If your reputation is not too shabby, discussing a moderator's action will not mean anything. A good moderator at least will listen to critique, and hopefully give good arguments and reasons for his actions (something I, according to most, have failed to do this time). However, if your reputation with the moderators/admins isn't good to begin with, then I think it is pretty sane that a moderator might get aggrevated if such a person doesn't listen to what just happens to be a superior. I know I speak for the entire team when I say that we do not think ourselves to be more important than the rest, however, at times, a moderator just is someone to listen to and obey.

I remember a policy of not deleting topics... long ago, before people needed rules instead of common sense to conduct sensible discussions...

I am not sure if that one was directed at me, and if it was, if it was saying something that I need to give my arguments about.
I do admit that I have lately moved more topics than I should have, and I will try to lock more topics instead of move them. However, if something is spam or advertising or absolutely nonsense, or a more serious violation of the rules, I will of course remove the topic or post. Also, I remind everybody that topics and posts are moved to an invisible part of the forum, and never deleted, unless they are double posts. It sometimes happens that other moderators do not think the just actions were taken in which case the problem is regularly resolved by either reversing the effect or, in some (rare) cases apologising to the ones 'affected'.

GoneWacko only said some were broken, a clearer indication might be worth the try next time.

I will try harder next time, however, some things are too obvious to comment on. Then again I might have misjudged the obviousness of this topic. Apparently the fact that this topic's first post was changed to say "Welcome to THE Avatar Topic!" in big red letters (or something similar) and the overal quality of the posts in this topic (apart from the posts where people actually helped with getting an avatar to work) does not justify the topic to be moved as spam. An example of such a post is indeed the 'woohoo 100th post' one:
A post saying "woohoo 100th post" with 10 or so smilies and some completely useless screenshot of 60 KB's (for a 180x100 pic :/) which is a waste of diskspace. (yes there's plenty, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try conserving it)
Furthermore, there was a lot of off-topicness (yes it's the off-topic forum, but I don't think topics are made to go off-topic), such as talk about Counterstrike and Red Alert2. What's that got to do with avatars O_o?

I hope GoneWacko's remark about freedom of speech won't lead us to a new debate about
the privileges and duties of moderators.

All I meant by that remark was that people do have to right to express their opinions, like Ghost has done.

Let's not disqualify someone based on one remark but more on the history of that someone.

Of course we moderators, or at least I as a moderator, look at the overal reputation of a person. If I know a person not to be a troublemaker, spammer or anything of the like, I do not act as ... how shall I say, violently, as when someone IS known as such. However, I repeat that Geo.c Ghost's reputation or history as you call it, is not too good. (reputation, in this context, is a personal thing. It might be that other moderators do not share this view.) Although his bad reputation is mainly caused by this very topic.

[Raichase]

The lack of trust I notice nearly every day does get me down at times.

Probably not worth much given the discussion, but I think you are doing a good job. We only ever have problems here once every few months, which isn't bad at all - its very good.

Don't get disenheartened .

[spaceman-spiff]

Oh GW, I have a "lock" reputation too, work on it, I don't close that much anymore, the reason I didn't come in these discussions lately is because I give members more freedom, more leesh
I only lock double topics and topics with too much flaming, they don't even dare to post pron so that is no problem here
I wouldn't have closed geo's topic about his avatars, off-topic is off-topic, one can go far there as far as I'm concerned

AND NO, arguing with moderators doesn't result in automatic bans, we do discuss about this in the private section
Shadow was a bit harsh in his post
There is a big difference between arguing and insulting with private messages like some artist has done

And once more, we don't want "yay my ... the post", it's like a red cloth on a bull

[Lightglobe]

off-topic is off-topic, one can go far there as far as I'm concerned

I'd actually like to bring up an idea on this point. Personal opinion, but off-topic should be allowed to go off-topic completely in threads except in certain ones where it is obvious not to go off-topic(the games threads, the music thread, desktop thread etc.). Only lock a thread if it turns into a flame war or is a double post(so a post of a game we already have). Create a fun, nearly anything goes atmosphere in off-topic. It would liten up the forums a little, and be a fun section to go to.

To quote a guy I know from another forum: "There is no derails or rerails, it's called the flow of conversation"

[Purno]

Maybe some OT, but I want to say this actually:

All I want to say is that I do not feel like I abused my powers or anything like that.
It appears to be a fact that the entire forum has always doubted if I would do well enough as a moderator. I noticed this the very hour I got the promotion. People being like "WTF, GoneWacko is a moderator?!". Thus, every time I move spam or close a topic I fear that people will start screaming Im doing a bad job, similar to what you're suggesting now (abuse of power). Yet still I can clearly 'see' people think I take action without thinking it all through enough, which is _definately_ not true. The lack of trust I notice nearly every day does get me down at times.

You became moderator when I was on vacation, and when I returned (I have to admit) I thought something similar as "WTF...", but after all, you're not doing a bad job, IMO. Everybody makes mistakes, but as long as you are open for discussions about those mistakes, and try to learn from it, it's OK, IMO. I know moderator isn't always easy, because you have the task to keep the forum nice and clean from spam-thingies, which sometimes forces you to make (difficult) choices. And it's not always easy to make the right choice, because you can't satisfy everybody. (IMO)

In short: Keep up the good work!

EDIT: After reading what I've wrote, this was not only a reaction on GW.

[Villem]

GoneWacko has proven to be good moderator, but some moderator's actions here are doubtful at best.

[Hyronymus]

All the mods here are good but, as normal humans, they sometimes make mistakes. I wrote not to judge people by one action but rather on their history earlier in this thread. I don't see why that shouldn't hold true for judging moderators too.

[Observer]

This is exactely why I never wanted and still never want to become a moderator

[Aegir]

I reckon the moderators here are doing a bloody marvelous job. I reckon that a lot of the complainers need to cut them some slack.

Being a moderator is bloody hard at the best of times, they do not need people whining about them being over-zealous (I haven't seen that mentioned specifically here, but that was the general vibe I got).

As a moderator of two or three rather big (But relativly slow), important areas on a rather large forum (About the size of this one, maybe a tad bigger), I can understand a lot of what the moderators here are saying.

It is a very difficult job to try and do the duties of a moderator, without fear of being classed as too 'eager' (I almost ran into that when I first became a mod). You run the risk every time you perform your duties, of being glared at by your fellow staff, and have eggs hurled at you by the masses. Especially if your new to the job.

Damnit I forgot the rest of my rant, but the point is rather clear, if they yell at you 95% of the time, you have screwed up. Yes, mistakes do happen, but coming and chucking a hissy fit is not a good way to solve it. Approaching an Moderator or Admin calmly, via Private Messages, is in my oppinion the most suitable way to deal with things.

Again, I must stress, the moderators here are among the best I have encountered, feel lucky that you do have such good staff.

Hmm, I think I spooned all that on a little too thick. Beh, ah well.

[GoneWacko]

off-topic is off-topic, one can go far there as far as I'm concerned

I'd actually like to bring up an idea on this point. Personal opinion, but off-topic should be allowed to go off-topic completely in threads except in certain ones where it is obvious not to go off-topic(the games threads, the music thread, desktop thread etc.). Only lock a thread if it turns into a flame war or is a double post(so a post of a game we already have). Create a fun, nearly anything goes atmosphere in off-topic. It would liten up the forums a little, and be a fun section to go to.

I am not sure if that would be a good idea, because, like I said, topics are made to discuss just that: a certain topic. If you're allowed to go off-topic if you want to, then we could just as well make the off-topic section one big thread where anyone can say something.
If you have something funny to say abuot something then it tends to go off-topic.
However, I do agree that it might be best to cut people some slack in the off-topic section.
After all the average off-topicness starts when people make a funny joke about the original topic, which then results in two pages discussing this joke, and from one thing comes another, and another, and soon the original topic of discussion is long forgotten.
Making jokes is not forbidden. On the contrary, I don't think anyone wants a boring forum.

However, maybe it would be a good idea not to respond to a joke too much unless you also have something to say about the original topic of discussion? (might actually be an interesting addition to the rules, although violating this one wouldn't really do that much)

[Lightglobe]

Surprisingly enough, I visit a forum where this is the general atmosphere of the "Off-Topic" area. It works quite well in the end. People respect the idea of staying on-topic, but if a thread is derailed, the moderators don't mind. They only intervene if it gets onto flaming, or where the derail is......stupid I'll guess I'll say. Most topics stay ontopic.

I'm not asking for you to just go "Hey guys, be idiots and go offtopic on purpose" what I'm saying is that the Off-Topic section should have a very "allow the flow of conversation" feel.