Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

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palzkillm
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Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

Hello,

I have an issue I was not able to solve by myself:

- I have a forest, providing max amount of wood, 2.295 tonnes
- I have a station right next to the forest
- The station has five lanes for loading trains
- I have plenty of trains serving the station, they acutally queue up for loading (bottom-right corner)
- The track layout and signaling leaving the station does not cause any kind of delays or congestion, trains flow nicely

Still, the station has a rating of POOR.

I noticed, that only ONE train is loading, up until appx 80% full, after that a second train starts to load simultaneously.
Other stations with even higher load are working just fine.

I would like to improve the stations rating, but nothing has helped so far. Any ideas?

Thanks, Marco
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jfs
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by jfs »

The other order on the trains is a "Transfer and leave empty". What does the status on the station in the other end look like?

The game keeps track of where transferred cargo comes from. Even if you move cargo off the originating station, if it piles up on another station where it does a transfer, the rating on the originating station gets affected. You need to provide the required capacity along the entire trip.
skc
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by skc »

palzkillm wrote: 23 Oct 2022 21:03 I noticed, that only ONE train is loading, up until appx 80% full, after that a second train starts to load simultaneously.
Other stations with even higher load are working just fine.
That's correct behaviour, for any and all stations, in my experience. Only one train at a time, per cargo, will be able to load that cargo.
mak
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by mak »

Too many trains for the output of the station.
Try also not having 'full load' and having shared orders.
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jfs
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by jfs »

mak wrote: 24 Oct 2022 10:13 Too many trains for the output of the station.
Try also not having 'full load' and having shared orders.
That sounds wrong.

The number of trains would be correct (or possibly even too few) if the station rating was high enough for the station to actually receive most of the production of the industry.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with full load and shared orders, why do you think that's a problematic setup?
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by zifox »

skc wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:19
palzkillm wrote: 23 Oct 2022 21:03 I noticed, that only ONE train is loading, up until appx 80% full, after that a second train starts to load simultaneously.
Other stations with even higher load are working just fine.
That's correct behaviour, for any and all stations, in my experience. Only one train at a time, per cargo, will be able to load that cargo.
Indeed. The goal is to complete the loading of one train and prevent weird situations where you have one train loaded at 95% percents, another one at 5%, and the first train can't leave the station because the second one is being loaded up first. (in which case the cargo on the first train loses value)
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by mak »

jfs wrote: 24 Oct 2022 18:52
mak wrote: 24 Oct 2022 10:13 Too many trains for the output of the station.
Try also not having 'full load' and having shared orders.
That sounds wrong.

The number of trains would be correct (or possibly even too few) if the station rating was high enough for the station to actually receive most of the production of the industry.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with full load and shared orders, why do you think that's a problematic setup?
I agree that 'full load' and 'shared orders' are not a problem but the game we are looking at has too many trains backed up.
I did not get it completeley correct and should have written, try 'shared orders' and 'automatic timetable' and removing 'full load' this would phase the arrival of trains, trains may run at a loss but I expect the rating of the station to improve.

Could also reduce the number of wagons, per train. so reducing the time trains are waiting (loading) of course the total load of the train, would have to be viable to make the trains profitable.

Also reducing number of trains would reduce running costs, when the rating of the station improves and more cargo is available then trains or wagons could be increased.

I am not saying this would solve the problem just another way of dealing with it
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by LaChupacabra »

mak wrote: 24 Oct 2022 10:13 Try also not having 'full load'
This is generally a wrong approach and most often results in a rating downgrading, even a very significant downgrade.
"Full load" is one of the most effective methods of increasing your rating, but here is quite a point in that.
First of all, cargo distribution is enabled in the game, which means that the game decides to which station from the available goods will be sent to.
I think this is a horrible option as it stands and one of the worst things you can do is turn it on. But nevermind. One of the main reasons for such problems is that players, like Marco as I think, very often don't know that the cargo is being directed to different stations. The fact that it is so is shown by the small "+" icon which is used to expand the list of goals. I definitely think that if cargodist is enabled, this list should always be expanded by default.
Poor +.png
Poor +.png (179.79 KiB) Viewed 1313 times
When it comes to solving this problem, it would be best to divide the station into platforms using waypoints where each would be responsible for a different direction and build a sufficiently large "waiting room" for the trains. It is a solution that can be safely used together with a full load order.
Waypoints.png
Waypoints.png (207.02 KiB) Viewed 1313 times
You can also, instead of the above solution, remove "full load" as mak said and instead set a loading time, for example 10-20 days.

Alternatively, the problem may be that cargo that is transferred at the designated station never reaches the destination station.
Or even simpler: the second order is wrong and instead of "transfer" it should be just "unload".
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by jfs »

LaChupacabra wrote: 25 Oct 2022 20:37 One of the main reasons for such problems is that players, like Marco as I think, very often don't know that the cargo is being directed to different stations. The fact that it is so is shown by the small "+" icon which is used to expand the list of goals. I definitely think that if cargodist is enabled, this list should always be expanded by default.
I'm pretty sure that + doesn't necessarily indicate that CargoDist is enabled. When cargo arrives at a station and a vehicle is loading, the vehicle will reserve as much of the cargo as it can fit for loading, and then load that cargo at its max loading speed. While the cargo is reserved for loading, it shows as a special category under the cargo type, expandable with the +.
This reservation for loading is how multiple vehicles waiting for load at the same time, make sure that the vehicle that arrived first also loads to full first.
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by skc »

jfs wrote: 26 Oct 2022 06:38
LaChupacabra wrote: 25 Oct 2022 20:37 One of the main reasons for such problems is that players, like Marco as I think, very often don't know that the cargo is being directed to different stations. The fact that it is so is shown by the small "+" icon which is used to expand the list of goals. I definitely think that if cargodist is enabled, this list should always be expanded by default.
I'm pretty sure that + doesn't necessarily indicate that CargoDist is enabled. When cargo arrives at a station and a vehicle is loading, the vehicle will reserve as much of the cargo as it can fit for loading, and then load that cargo at its max loading speed. While the cargo is reserved for loading, it shows as a special category under the cargo type, expandable with the +.
This reservation for loading is how multiple vehicles waiting for load at the same time, make sure that the vehicle that arrived first also loads to full first.
Correct, clicking on the '+' will show how much cargo is reserved for loading.
Also, at a transfer station, it will show which station the cargo came from.
LaChupacabra
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by LaChupacabra »

jfs wrote: 26 Oct 2022 06:38 I'm pretty sure that + doesn't necessarily indicate that CargoDist is enabled. When cargo arrives at a station and a vehicle is loading, the vehicle will reserve as much of the cargo as it can fit for loading, and then load that cargo at its max loading speed. While the cargo is reserved for loading, it shows as a special category under the cargo type, expandable with the +.
This reservation for loading is how multiple vehicles waiting for load at the same time, make sure that the vehicle that arrived first also loads to full first.
That's true. :) I forgot about that. The fact is, however, that I have often seen this type of rating issues on servers with Cargodist enabled (almost all servers use this for passengers and mail). And this was because the players didn't know that the cargoes were being shipped to different stations. This is an actual problem and it would be worthwhile to do something about it because it really is common.
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.
palzkillm
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

jfs wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:08 The other order on the trains is a "Transfer and leave empty". What does the status on the station in the other end look like?

The game keeps track of where transferred cargo comes from. Even if you move cargo off the originating station, if it piles up on another station where it does a transfer, the rating on the originating station gets affected. You need to provide the required capacity along the entire trip.
The Station at the other end is a transfer-collector station, which feeds into a giant processor station. You are actually right, the transfer-collector station is quite full, and the network servicing it was quite sub-ideal. I'll work on those, and get back on this!

However, there are other producer stations around the one in the picture (smaller though), which all also have a rating of good to excellent - so the way-to-destination itself can not be the only reason for the bad reputation. Hmm..

Marco
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

skc wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:19
palzkillm wrote: 23 Oct 2022 21:03 I noticed, that only ONE train is loading, up until appx 80% full, after that a second train starts to load simultaneously.
Other stations with even higher load are working just fine.
That's correct behaviour, for any and all stations, in my experience. Only one train at a time, per cargo, will be able to load that cargo.
I have various stations with multiple trains loading at the same time, in the picture at least 6 trains.
multi_load.PNG
multi_load.PNG (249.48 KiB) Viewed 1146 times
Marco
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

zifox wrote: 25 Oct 2022 07:44
skc wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:19
palzkillm wrote: 23 Oct 2022 21:03 I noticed, that only ONE train is loading, up until appx 80% full, after that a second train starts to load simultaneously.
Other stations with even higher load are working just fine.
That's correct behaviour, for any and all stations, in my experience. Only one train at a time, per cargo, will be able to load that cargo.
Indeed. The goal is to complete the loading of one train and prevent weird situations where you have one train loaded at 95% percents, another one at 5%, and the first train can't leave the station because the second one is being loaded up first. (in which case the cargo on the first train loses value)
That depends on your "goal": I completely concur that there are scenarios where you want one train to finish loading, before others start - but I can always control the amount of trains loading simultaneously by the number of tracks the station has.

Marco
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

mak wrote: 25 Oct 2022 12:06
jfs wrote: 24 Oct 2022 18:52
mak wrote: 24 Oct 2022 10:13 Too many trains for the output of the station.
Try also not having 'full load' and having shared orders.
That sounds wrong.

The number of trains would be correct (or possibly even too few) if the station rating was high enough for the station to actually receive most of the production of the industry.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with full load and shared orders, why do you think that's a problematic setup?
I agree that 'full load' and 'shared orders' are not a problem but the game we are looking at has too many trains backed up.
I did not get it completeley correct and should have written, try 'shared orders' and 'automatic timetable' and removing 'full load' this would phase the arrival of trains, trains may run at a loss but I expect the rating of the station to improve.

Could also reduce the number of wagons, per train. so reducing the time trains are waiting (loading) of course the total load of the train, would have to be viable to make the trains profitable.

Also reducing number of trains would reduce running costs, when the rating of the station improves and more cargo is available then trains or wagons could be increased.

I am not saying this would solve the problem just another way of dealing with it
- Running costs are not an issue. Yearly total is +3.245.947.957
- So your idea is, that the time a train waits in the station to be fully load is causing a negative impact on the station - even when only 1 train is loaded at a time, and all others are waiting to be loaded AT ALL, so basically according to your general idea?

Marco
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

LaChupacabra wrote: 25 Oct 2022 20:37
mak wrote: 24 Oct 2022 10:13 Try also not having 'full load'
This is generally a wrong approach and most often results in a rating downgrading, even a very significant downgrade.
"Full load" is one of the most effective methods of increasing your rating, but here is quite a point in that.
First of all, cargo distribution is enabled in the game, which means that the game decides to which station from the available goods will be sent to.
I think this is a horrible option as it stands and one of the worst things you can do is turn it on. But nevermind. One of the main reasons for such problems is that players, like Marco as I think, very often don't know that the cargo is being directed to different stations. The fact that it is so is shown by the small "+" icon which is used to expand the list of goals. I definitely think that if cargodist is enabled, this list should always be expanded by default.
Poor +.png

When it comes to solving this problem, it would be best to divide the station into platforms using waypoints where each would be responsible for a different direction and build a sufficiently large "waiting room" for the trains. It is a solution that can be safely used together with a full load order.
Waypoints.png
You can also, instead of the above solution, remove "full load" as mak said and instead set a loading time, for example 10-20 days.

Alternatively, the problem may be that cargo that is transferred at the designated station never reaches the destination station.
Or even simpler: the second order is wrong and instead of "transfer" it should be just "unload".
As per my understanding, you assume, that the wood produced by the forest could have more than 1 saw mill it actually could go to?
If my understanding is correct, thats not the case: All the wood procuded here is transported inside a single, completely isolated network, with not a single other saw mill connected to it.

See screenshot below, showing the entire network:
- Bottom-left corner is the forest producing.
- Center is the transfer-collector-station, where wood from 13 forests is collected, and then transferred on to the..
- Top-right is the station with the consuming saw mill.
network.PNG
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Auge
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by Auge »

palzkillm wrote: 31 Oct 2022 12:25
skc wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:19
palzkillm wrote: 23 Oct 2022 21:03 I noticed, that only ONE train is loading, up until appx 80% full, after that a second train starts to load simultaneously.
Other stations with even higher load are working just fine.
That's correct behaviour, for any and all stations, in my experience. Only one train at a time, per cargo, will be able to load that cargo.
I have various stations with multiple trains loading at the same time, in the picture at least 6 trains.
Share all those trains the same destination? If not (i.e. with Cargo Distribution on or with transfer orders), it takes no wonder, to have multiple trains loading at one station in parrallel. We have to extend skc's definition "Only one train at a time, per cargo" with "per destination" (and IMHO also with "with shared orders").

Tschö, Auge
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

Auge wrote: 31 Oct 2022 12:56
palzkillm wrote: 31 Oct 2022 12:25
skc wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:19

That's correct behaviour, for any and all stations, in my experience. Only one train at a time, per cargo, will be able to load that cargo.
I have various stations with multiple trains loading at the same time, in the picture at least 6 trains.
Share all those trains the same destination? If not (i.e. with Cargo Distribution on or with transfer orders), it takes no wonder, to have multiple trains loading at one station in parrallel. We have to extend skc's definition "Only one train at a time, per cargo" with "per destination" (and IMHO also with "with shared orders").

Tschö, Auge
Moin,

yes, all trains have the exact same destination. I simply build giant feeder networks. In the case of the pictured trains, about 137 oil platforms feeding into one giant transfer station, which then transfers the Oil via train across the entire 4K-Map into one single refinery, whose goods are again transported across the entire map to one single city.

Marco
Last edited by palzkillm on 31 Oct 2022 13:42, edited 1 time in total.
palzkillm
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Re: Station Rating POOR despite many trains waiting/loading

Post by palzkillm »

jfs wrote: 24 Oct 2022 08:08 The other order on the trains is a "Transfer and leave empty". What does the status on the station in the other end look like?

The game keeps track of where transferred cargo comes from. Even if you move cargo off the originating station, if it piles up on another station where it does a transfer, the rating on the originating station gets affected. You need to provide the required capacity along the entire trip.
This was the relevant hint: The transfer station all the wood was transferred to had a good rating - but was accumulating wood. While the ratings of other producer stations were still better than the one in the picture, they were all getting worse slowly-
I improved the entire network around the transfer station - and without changing ANYTHING at the pictured wood producing station or the trains servivng it, it's rating improved to excellent in minutes.

Thanks to jfs!

Marco
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