Russia-Ukraine Conflict

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Wahazar
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by Wahazar »

Lets repeat history lesson, before history start to repeat you.
Imagine similar discussion in 1938:
now, with the German population of west part of Czechoslovakia getting activated as well, there might be no more chances to keep Sudetenland in Chechoslovakia. In fact, Sudetenland is intrinsically Prussian.
deja vu?

or this:
Since when he got elected "automatically"? The high number of votes clearly shows that the majority of Germans regarded Hitler as the best choice in that election. I don´t think you remember the woeful state of Weimar Republic... but many Prussians still do.
...
I´m not interested to carry on fixing your skewed image of Prussia, my emphasis was on much more general lines, right from the start. It does not help to demonise Hitler, only because he managed to get Germany back in business.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by michael blunck »

McZapkie wrote: deja vu?
The only déjà vu I get is that of the Fukushima discussion, where I was the first one here predicting a core meltdown, but had been hooted down by the ignorant crowd.

Your contribution isn´t much better, at least it´s not understandable at all.

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Dave
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by Dave »

michael blunck wrote:
McZapkie wrote: deja vu?
The only déjà vu I get is that of the Fukushima discussion, where I was the first one here predicting a core meltdown, but had been hooted down by the ignorant crowd.

Your contribution isn´t much better, at least it´s not understandable at all.

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Since McZapkie wasn't around for that event, Michael, you might at least offer him the courtesy of a proper response, rather than relate to a time you felt similarly unheard.

With all respect (and there is a lot) people disagreeing with you does not make them ignorant and I imagine you know better than to think so.

There's no need to instigate animosity in what has so far been a lively and fascinating discussion.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by Redirect Left »

Russia has test fired a missile, as tension continues to rise.
I imagine the tension, especially with the West, will only continue to rise, now Russia felt the need to test its missiles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26442381

Also, at least he had the politeness to sign off his post nicely, Dave, like he always does. I think he forgets its a forum, not a letter he's writing.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by planetmaker »

Redirect Left wrote:Russia has test fired a missile, as tension continues to rise.
I imagine the tension, especially with the West, will only continue to rise, now Russia felt the need to test its missiles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26442381
The missile test was already scheduled, announced and communicated through appropriate channels way before the Crimea became anything the news reported about. So this missile test really has no signifcance.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by Redirect Left »

planetmaker wrote: The missile test was already scheduled, announced and communicated through appropriate channels way before the Crimea became anything the news reported about. So this missile test really has no signifcance.
That doesn't mean the other countries will see it as a suitable thing to be doing, in the middle of the current unfolding crisis.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by Wahazar »

Apologies to all who may feel disgused reading my previous post. It was not my intention to claim that Putin==Hitler.
Only Michaels arguing style bring me memories of Chamberlain and others europeans politics speeches before IIWW
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by michael blunck »

Dave wrote: With all respect (and there is a lot) people disagreeing with you does not make them ignorant and I imagine you know better than to think so.

There's no need to instigate animosity in what has so far been a lively and fascinating discussion.
Well Dave, I mean, posting "manipulated" quotes like these:
McZapkie wrote:
Since when he got elected "automatically"? The high number of votes clearly shows that the majority of Germans regarded Hitler as the best choice in that election. I don´t think you remember the woeful state of Weimar Republic... but many Prussians still do.
...
I´m not interested to carry on fixing your skewed image of Prussia, my emphasis was on much more general lines, right from the start. It does not help to demonise Hitler, only because he managed to get Germany back in business.
should immediately disqualify the poster and o/c they´re putting an end to every discussion.

McZapkie wrote: Only Michaels arguing style bring me memories of Chamberlain and others europeans politics speeches before IIWW
John Toland in "Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography" gives a very readable description of the decisive months between may and october 1938. You should read it.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by SquireJames »

Other people have valid points of view also you know Michael, or had this not occurred to you?

And I am not sure you or anyone else here can decide what "disqualifies" someone's opinion.

(Apart from Dave, but it's universally acknowledged he's a God among men :P )
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by YNM »

Ukraine suddenly turns into something like the new Egypt only that the old government aligns with Russia.

I expect that this would turn into some sort of puppet government.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by JamieLei »

We've all got to remember that Ukraine and Crimea are two different things. They both have their own parliament. Crimea is territorially part of Ukraine, but as a nation owes a lot to Russia too, which the rest of Ukraine does not feel.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by YNM »

Ah, didn't think it is that far.

Crimea to Russia... depends on your vies. Smaller country is sometimes better.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by Drury »

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I feel like actually going down there and see what's up for myself.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by kamnet »

http://news.yahoo.com/crimean-parliamen ... nance.html

The Crimean parliament voted overwhelmingly today to join the Russian Federation and to roll back it's constitution to a 1992 version which gives it more autonomy over its affairs.

Meanwhile, public support of pro-Russian protests in southern Ukraine is waining after police forces have cleared those protesters out of those buildings.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by vear »

The Crimean parliament is a puppet at the moment, of course. Plus, even prior to the ongoing events, the voting system had been set in a way that virtually prevents anyone of non-Russian ethnicity to get a seat. Of course, like I said before, just being Crimean of Russian origin doesn't involve being pro Russian. It does, when it's comes to politicians though, as all they hope for is getting paid by the Kremlin for locally supporting Russia's vision for Crimea...

EU decided to put little sanctions on Russia earlier today. This isn't going to do much help, sadly. EU's decision making is too spread out in my opinion.
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I'm curious whether such propaganda still actually works on anyone there. Russian (and pro Russian) officials are still knee-deep in the Soviet Union and methods of the former system, not quite realising it dissolved almost 23 years ago. It looks funny when seen from the (relatively) free world, but it's kinda scary to think some might actually get brainwashed by the authorities' tv mumble.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by kamnet »

If Russia stops after the re-taking of Crimea, I think most of the world would be happy to leave it at that. Then leave the issue of Ukraine splitting up to their citizens themselves. Of course, the bigger issue may be how to settle their debts.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by vear »

As for debts, actually, leaving Crimea within Ukraine isn't economically beneficial for the latter. Crimea has no real industries, agriculture isn't sufficient enough, so food has to be imported (most of farmers were Tatar... until Stalin expelled them. Various attempts at restoring agriculture were made, with no significant success), almost all electricity comes from mainland Ukraine. Crimea itself runs on tourism, but is in the red all the time anyway.

Whether Russia stops at Crimea or not is a riddle only Vladimir Putin can solve. The rest of the world is, as you say, willing to sacrifice Crimea for the sake of peace and economic growth built by trading with Russia (especially now, when half of Europe is struggling with crisis). It would be a failure of western civilisation though.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by kamnet »

If the people of Crimea wish to re-align themselves with Russia, who is the rest of the world to say that they cannot? How this all went down hasn't been cool at all, but if the end result is that Crimea gets what it wants, and Russia got what it wanted, and Ukraine remains independent and free to seek its own future, it may be the best we can hope for.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by kamnet »

In other news, the Russian navy has allegedly sunk a junked anti-submarine ship in part of the Black Sea to prevent Ukraine navy ships from deploying.
http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/l ... z2vB6xrJ7C
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Re: Russia-Ukraine Conflict

Post by YNM »

This Crimean thing sounds totally just like the Timor Timur (now East Timor) problem once in Indonesia. Annexed under pressure, then it left us again (halfly under pressure from Australia). All of that just for nationalism (the first, as it were probably considered once as an east indies area) and greed (the later - for the oil reserves, which later the people there itself go against).

I wonder, maybe Crimea has oil reserves offshore or something like that ?
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