[Univ] GRVTS - Generic Road Vehicles and Trams sets

[LaDoncella]

Is it intended that at least in 1950s (and possibly other times as well), trams transporting sand (and some other FIRS 3/4 cargos like kaolin) aren't available in EGRVTS 2 and 2.1, whereas trucks can transport them?

Yes, trams only transport crate cargos.

Not sure it is a bug or not. Electric tram tracks is available despite there are no electric tram in the early starting year. Kind of break immersion when playing in early starting year.

Not really a bug, but its getting fixed.

[LaDoncella]

r234
- Electrified tram tracks should only be available when there are electric trams.
- Changed introduction date of "Hereford G5 Articulated Tanker Truck" to 1979 from 1972.
r233
- Changed model_life of horse vehicles to retire a bit earlier in a staggered way and declutter purchase list a bit.

[Limyx826]

r234
- Electrified tram tracks should only be available when there are electric trams.
- Changed introduction date of "Hereford G5 Articulated Tanker Truck" to 1979 from 1972.
r233
- Changed model_life of horse vehicles to retire a bit earlier in a staggered way and declutter purchase list a bit.

Thanks for update again.

[Limyx826]

r234
- Electrified tram tracks should only be available when there are electric trams.
- Changed introduction date of "Hereford G5 Articulated Tanker Truck" to 1979 from 1972.

For electrified tram tracks case, basic testing show that they still be able to build from 1725. Might be because the horse tram also able to run on electrified tracks.

[LaDoncella]

r234
- Electrified tram tracks should only be available when there are electric trams.
- Changed introduction date of "Hereford G5 Articulated Tanker Truck" to 1979 from 1972.

For electrified tram tracks case, basic testing show that they still be able to build from 1725. Might be because the horse tram also able to run on electrified tracks.

I cannot reproduce this behavior.

[leifbk]

For electrified tram tracks case, basic testing show that they still be able to build from 1725. Might be because the horse tram also able to run on electrified tracks.

I cannot reproduce this behavior.

It may be dependent upon other GRFs. For instance the RoadHog trams (which I by the way heartily recommend for industry cargo) refuse to run on non-electrified tracks.

[Limyx826]

For electrified tram tracks case, basic testing show that they still be able to build from 1725. Might be because the horse tram also able to run on electrified tracks.

I cannot reproduce this behavior.

It may be dependent upon other GRFs. For instance the RoadHog trams (which I by the way heartily recommend for industry cargo) refuse to run on non-electrified tracks.

You are right, it was because of another GRF conflicting. Sorry to LaDoncella.

[LaChupacabra]

Hey LaDoncella!
It's good to see you keep developing and improving this set. For a long time I have been gathering to finally write, because there is one thing that bites me a bit, but somehow it turned out that I haven't done it yet. Recently, I played a bit more with this set and decided to do a translation for the Polish language, which is missing. I put the file below. I would also like to write some of my observations and ideas. Maybe they will interest you.
I apologize in advance that there is so much of this. There is just so much of it...

polish.lng

(22.06 KiB) Downloaded 79 times

Vehicles "with trailer" are too short
Probably a lot of players will never notice or even consider it a problem, but for others, including me, it is a problem. If the production level is not stable and/or loading takes more than 30 days, vehicles start to cross each other at the stops. This causes lorries to get stuck all the time, and it's hard to prevent this from happening. For me, for this reason, all of this vehicles "with trailer" are simply out of service. This in turn means that no higher-capacity vehicles are available for the transport of goods, mail, food and some others cargoes. The same troublesome problem occurs in the Road Hog set.
It would be good if you physically lengthen these vehicles so that only one could be loading in a single station side, as trucks with long trailers do. This is well done for example in the Polroad set, where regardless of whether the vehicle is longer or shorter, it always takes up one whole side of the stop. It would also not be a bad solution, though probably much more labor-intensive, to make these vehicles also optically longer and, in particular, to increase the distance between the tractor and the semi-trailer, because nowadays it is difficult to distinguish these vehicles from the single-unit ones. Besides, in fact, usually these types of vehicles have the maximum permissible length, so at least they should not be significantly shorter than those articulated.

[+] Spoiler

Thanks to the actual extension of semitrailers and tractors, it would be easier to distinguish them from ordinary trucks. On this occasion, their load capacity could be slightly increased. And in order to be competitive with articulated trucks, the latter could have a significantly higher price and maintenance costs.

New semitrailer.png (168.18 KiB) Viewed 4485 times

The costs of maintaining the horse-drawn carriages are too high
Especially when you raise these costs x2, x4, x8 they become way too high while other vehicles are still quite low.

[+] Spoiler

Vehicles used on optimal routes. Buses and trams used in typical city traffic with short distances between stops will have a much lower income, but even then in most cases the cost-income ratio will not be so weak.
When determining costs, it is worth taking into account what income can be generated by the vehicle and determine the costs in such a way that they constitute a certain percentage of this income.

The trams have too little power
The problem is mainly related to freight trams which, when loaded with fruit or other heavy loads, are not able to reach the maximum speeds. For example, AH Star accelerates to just 60 km/h instead of 96 km/h. On climbs, it slows down to 6 km/h. It is a bit better with passenger trams, because they reach the indicated speeds, but on climbs they also slow down very much to 15-18 km/h.

Inefficient trams and buses in the centers of large cities
The problem is mainly the loading speed, which ranges from 5 (11% per sequence) to even 10 days (5%). For this reason, it is impossible to create an efficient communication network, unless a large interchange is built at each intersection, what will not look good. Equally inappropriate, newer models often have slower loading rates. For other sets, this time is usually from 1 day (50 or even 100%) for modern low-floor vehicles to 4 days (15%) for older vehicles. For long-distance vehicles, this pace is often slower. Meanwhile, here a small city bus has a slower loading than the long-distance (express) bus. Besides, also the capacities are not very attractive. At the beginning of the 20th century, the maximum load capacity is still only 96 for the bus and 135 for the tram. These values, apart from being quite restrictive in the realities of the game, are even lower than the real ones.

The "Trams: Enable with NRT without tracks" setting doesn't seem to make sense.
During the translation, I tried to understand what it was for and I noticed that this setting is completely unnecessary and, in addition, potentially problematic for the player. It makes no sense to turn off the provided tracks, because they will be replaced by those from the other set anyway. If the player chooses the basic first setting, Ratt Roads doesn't change anything, while U&Ratt just overwrites them.

Incorrect naming: trailer instead of semitrailer
This is a detail and a mistake probably resulting from the common nomenclature, but for someone who knows the subject, and it is likely that there are quite a lot of such players, it is confusing. It also has some slight but negative educational value.

Minor errors in the English language version
"Steam" is repeated twice in all names of steam trucks. For example: Stanier Steam Hopper Steam Truck or Wheeler's Steam Flatbed Steam Truck.

Vehicle sounds
I generally like them, especially the sound of the tram. But it seems to me that in the case of combustion vehicles, they are not the best match. I have the impression that these newest vehicles sound like the oldest ones (rough, unpleasant sound), and the oldest ones as at least modern (typical diesel sound).

Electric vehicles
Regarding the sounds, but not only that, I think it would be good to make these newest vehicles electric. Looking back 10 years ago when this set was written, this transformation may not have seemed so obvious, but looking at this today, the new diesels and only diesels in 2070 seem quite strange. I think the maglev sound would be good for such vehicles. It's nice if the description (Drive: horse, steam, diesel, hybrid, electric) or in some graphic way also marked the type of drive (e.g. as for 2CC trains). Maintenance costs may be slightly different with the type of drive.

Better cargo aging for express buses
Some say it's a broken item in the game. I believe that it is very functional and allows to emphasize the character and use of vehicles in a nice way. This function was used e.g. for buses from the Polroad set and I think it works very well. Thanks to this, the player can clearly see for which use the individual vehicles are intended. Ok, maybe he won't notice it right away, but if he tries to transport passengers between distant cities by trams or typical city buses, he will notice that it is not very profitable. As for the visual side - information for the player, it looks interesting in the Ikarus Set (although this function does not work there) and in your PIPE set. Wahazar in Polroad used a parameter called "Comfort" which is not bad, but he used absolute cargo aging values ​​which I think are rather enigmatic for most players.

I think that would be all. I hope something will come in handy

[LaChupacabra]

One more idea!
Thanks to the enlarged cabin, trucks with a semitrailer would be better suited for longer routes = they could have better cargo aging. This would be also some justification for using these trucks.

New semitrailer truck for long route.png (123.28 KiB) Viewed 4483 times

[LaDoncella]

Recently, I played a bit more with this set and decided to do a translation for the Polish language, which is missing. I put the file below. I would also like to write some of my observations and ideas. Maybe they will interest you.
I apologize in advance that there is so much of this.

Will be added soon.

Vehicles "with trailer" are too short

Anything that requires drawing sprites will probably never happen unless someone else draws them.
Drawing new trailers is pretty straightforward for box/mail/tank/etc (just 8 sprites for each). Flatbeds and hoppers on the other hand involve hundreds of sprites for each to acomodate for variations and cargoes.

The costs of maintaining the horse-drawn carriages are too high

Will have a look at them. However horse vehicles are meant to be very expensive to run.

The trams have too little power

The law of unintended consequences strikes back. This happened since allowing all box vehicles to carry the same capacity of any cargo.

The "Trams: Enable with NRT without tracks" setting doesn't seem to make sense.

This is covering my back and avoiding possible incompatibilities in the future.

Minor errors in the English language version

Fixed in future release.

Electric vehicles

Good idea, will implement it at some point.

Inefficient trams and buses in the centers of large cities

This is something that has bugged me for a long time. It is definitively a problem and something that I had intent to deal with at some point.

[LaChupacabra]

...translation for the Polish language.

Will be added soon.

Thanks

The trams have too little power

The law of unintended consequences strikes back. This happened since allowing all box vehicles to carry the same capacity of any cargo.

If you compare the power of the trams in the set and in reality, they are very small. For comparison, most of modern trams have a power of 500 to 1000 HP (look at 2CC Trams). That's 2-4 times more. In the case of a freight tram, the comparable CarGoTram from Dresden has a power of 1207 HP. The most powerful tram in the set has only .
The lower speed on flat may be a characteristic for this trams, but those 6 km/h on climbs are just a downside.
Some solution for freight trams could be a corresponding reduction in load capacity based on the weight of the cargoes, but I think an increase in power would be more nice.

Vehicles "with trailer" are too short

Anything that requires drawing sprites will probably never happen unless someone else draws them.
Drawing new trailers is pretty straightforward for box/mail/tank/etc (just 8 sprites for each). Flatbeds and hoppers on the other hand involve hundreds of sprites for each to acomodate for variations and cargoes.

I wouldn't like to make a commitment, so don't take it too seriously, but if you'd like to make a change like that, maybe™ I could make this sprites. Now I have a bit more time, soon it will be less, but who knows. Then it would look something like this...

It is not a coherent concept, but only a collection of them

Mix of ideas.png (363.24 KiB) Viewed 4169 times

A few questions and suggestions for the above...

Refrigerated Truck
To me, these trucks look a bit incomprehensible. It looks like an overhead loading opening, but one that it is never full, and two that it looks strange in any case other than the transport of fruit. So maybe it's better if it was a regular box body, but always in white. This is what it looks like in many sets, including OpenGFX+, and I don't think it would be a bad thing.

Box, Mail and Armored Truck
Currently, the former is quite easy to confuse with hopper trucks. However, the other two are practically the same to each other. Maybe it would be worth giving up a special type of vehicle for the post? This could be transported both by box trucks (which is the most popular nowadays) and armored trucks (confidential documents). It would be easier to keep the differences in appearance between different types of vehicles.
By the way, the reinforced walls look a bit strange in the case of transporting a box truck and I think it would be good to smooth them. However, in the case of post / armored trucks, it would be good for these doors to close while driving.

Articulated trucks - with missing wheels or just trailer trucks?
Honestly, I have never seen them like this and they seem to be a very unique solution. They comes with an axle arrangement that is truly unique. I only noticed this during the translation. Probably for most players it doesn't make a difference either and they treat the other part as a regular trailer in the same way like me (that's how I translated it), but when you look at it, it's not an ordinary trailer. The change is not necessary, but if you would like to make the set more "realistic", it would be a good idea to redraw these sprites a bit. In the case of vehicles from the future, such a system could remain, as a new solution that is not feasible or profitable today. For modern and earlier vehicles, it would be worthwhile to convert them either into lorries with trailers or indeed so that they could be considered as a articulated truck in fact.

Articulated or not articulated....png (84.53 KiB) Viewed 4169 times

A few examples of articulated trucks I found. With the axis layout as in the game, I haven't seen a single one. (But maybe there is such a thing?)

[+] Spoiler

New vehicles
I wrote about electric, but in general I have some more (non-revealing) ideas. It doesn't necessarily make sense.

Longer articulated buses
There is probably only one such bus in the game and it is in Ikarus Set. In fact, there are many more such buses, and they are probably the most popular in Brazil. Maybe it would be worth adding something like this to the set?

Double articulated buses.png (68.48 KiB) Viewed 4169 times

Competitive vehicle models and Vehicle brands with a specific reputation
I don't think about real names. My point is to create several fictional brands and give specific characteristics to their vehicles. Currently, these names mean nothing to me at all and they are not associated with anything, and it could be otherwise. As in reality there is the Dacia which is just cheap but not very comfortable; there is a Toyota that is reliable; there is a Mercedes that is expensive and comfortable, but can be unreliable; there is a Lexus which is even more expensive, but besides being convenient, it is also reliable and long-lasting, and there is a Bentley which is very expensive, powerful and prestigious. I admit that this is something that I miss a bit in this set - the choice, because basically it looks like a new vehicle is always better and it is not worth considering a replacement. It would be nice if this choice was made. Not only in terms of capacity. Maybe this is a bit of a crazy idea, because we are talking about at least double the number of available vehicles, but considering that the changes to sprites would be rather small and repetitive, maybe it would make sense?

One last thing... I hope for myself
I didn't find a source for this add-on...

[WolfRamXx]

Articulated trucks - with missing wheels or just trailer trucks?
Honestly, I have never seen them like this and they seem to be a very unique solution. They comes with an axle arrangement that is truly unique. I only noticed this during the translation. Probably for most players it doesn't make a difference either and they treat the other part as a regular trailer in the same way like me (that's how I translated it), but when you look at it, it's not an ordinary trailer. The change is not necessary, but if you would like to make the set more "realistic", it would be a good idea to redraw these sprites a bit. In the case of vehicles from the future, such a system could remain, as a new solution that is not feasible or profitable today. For modern and earlier vehicles, it would be worthwhile to convert them either into lorries with trailers or indeed so that they could be considered as a articulated truck in fact.
Articulated or not articulated....png

A few examples of articulated trucks I found. With the axis layout as in the game, I haven't seen a single one. (But maybe there is such a thing?)

I assume you talk about those? This is very rare case of how trucks are setted up, seen only two real trucks like this, both were from Aljaska, i cant find the pics but both were overcabs, One was 5axle cisterne with 5axle cisterne semi trailer and the other one was similiar to one on pic. It was 3axle box truck with 50ft 3axle box semi trailer and 2axle turntable trailer, also box.

17957670922_1fd7f8bed0_k (1).jpg

(428.28 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Hostess-Dromedary-Crop.jpg (76.34 KiB) Viewed 4117 times

Anyway, there are generaly many things this set could change, like the luck of cargo trams in terms of other than general cargo. An example of what would be interesting (of corse cant find the pics...):

1280px-Freight_Tatra_T4_in_Lviv,_Ukraine.jpg

(308.38 KiB) Not downloaded yet

[LaDoncella]

Code: Select all

r236
- Added polish translation by LaChupacabra.
- Fixed typos with english steam trucks names.
- Increased power by 1.5x of cargo trams
- Rebalanced some running costs
	* Slighly reduced running cost of horse vehicles
	* Greatly reduced running cost of Coach buses
	* Greatly increased running costs of Articulated buses
- Rebalanced loading speed to reduce load times of vehicles:
	* Trams and buses load in 4 cycles.
	* Double decker trams, cargo trams and articulated buses load in 5 cycles.
	* Coaches and Double decker buses load in 6 cycles.

[Limyx826]

Great work as always LaDoncella.

[leifbk]

The new "enhanced mode" for early trucks is nice, but I think it's a little bit too much. The first generation of diesels should not carry more than 10 tons IMO, and the next one 15. The major benefit of these vehicles over the horses is that they take a lot less space, and are able to overtake each other.

Also, there's a visual inconsistency WRT the second generation steam vehicles which are much larger than the first diesels, while taking about the same amount of cargo.

Just want to add that LaChupacabra's drawings look great, and I'd love to see those trucks in the game

[LaDoncella]

Code: Select all

r237
- Fixed some articulated trucks showing wrong capacity in purchase window when using new vehicle stats.
- Cargo_age_period set to 333 for express vehicles (including Coaches)
- More reductions to load times:
	* Hopper, Flatbed and Tank Long trailers load in 7 cycles from 10.
	* Other Long trailers load in 6 cycles from 9.
	* Regular and Express mail trucks load at 5 cycles max.
	* Regular trucks load times limited to 7 cycles (only affects ~2020 and onwards trucks).

[colossal404]

Articulated trucks - with missing wheels or just trailer trucks?

Please allow me to explain why some drawings just look strange compared to anything from real life...
The sprites don't get draw one-by-one, Zephyris made some templates, draw the basics, then write a code to compile them. So there's no dedicated "trailer" or "truck" body, they use the same, the cargo compartment get drawed first, then the code overlay some wheels on it, then the trailer is completed, the truck itself then got another overlay to get a driver cab. This way it requires much less drawings, but still got a lot of different vehicles for each type. After all, it's a "generic" set, so don't need to make any sense of how it looks.
There is the original thread to see what i'm talking about.

[TransportFanMar]

I am using many NewGRFs including FIRS 3.0.12 (set to Extreme) and the passenger horses (including tram) have no capacity. It is 1872. Resetengines didn't work.

[JohnFranklin523]

Inspired from eGRVTS, the splendid work by all of you (including developers and advisors), I am going to develop my own road vehicle and tram set. Is it permitted to borrow your ideas (this happens unintentionally)? For example, I will increase the loading speed of vehicles again and add "Double-Articulated Bus" and "Articulated Double-Decker Bus" because of the Polish player's advice.

[Elukka]

It looks like there are no eGRVTS vehicles capable of transporting sulphur from FIRS arctic. Would this be a eGRVTS issue or a FIRS issue?

e: Apparently this could be because sulphur is classified as both bulk and liquid.