Transport Tycoon and OpenTTD on Sophisticated Gamer

[sophisticatedgamer]

Looking to see if players agree with these rankings on Transport Tycoon and OpenTTD, if not what do you think should be changed?
http://www.sophisticatedgamer.net/ranks.htm

[Edd.Dragon]

1. Total score is only average of all scores? Or some scores have more weight and another have less?

2. OTTD Game Balance = 5. Imh, 2-3 (without patches/mods), no more =)))

[Ameecher]

Having a combat element seems a bit stupid as it seemingly counts against OpenTTD because it doesn't have combat.

[teccuk]

Interesting site.

Add more content, perhaps a forum or something, and it could go far!

Yes it seems a fair score to me. Who am I to disagree with an aggregated score from proper gaming sites?

[sophisticatedgamer]

1. Total score is only average of all scores? Or some scores have more weight and another have less?

2. OTTD Game Balance = 5. Imh, 2-3 (without patches/mods), no more =)))

1. It is the average of all scores, no weights. The reason for this is so that games with more features and dynamics are ranked higher (assuming they are rated good in the categories as well).

2. are you saying that you think the GB for the original TT should be 2 or 3?

[FooBar]

2 points on 'crime and corruption'? I didn't know there were such things in OpenTTD...

However, I find it stupid that the 0 for combat counts towards the average. So we're punished because we have a violence-free game? If we ignore that, we arrive at an average of 3.6 and are suddenly the second best game in the list!

[wallyweb]

An interesting concept, however I did not see anything referring to ease of use:
- Does a game work out of the box with little need for configuration?
- If configurations are required, are they easily accessible and understandable?
It's all and well to rate a game according to it's features, but if they are difficult to access due to onerous and/or seemingly concealed configuration and/or patch requirements, a potential player could soon tire of the frustrations and choose to abandon the effort.

[sophisticatedgamer]

Having a combat element seems a bit stupid as it seemingly counts against OpenTTD because it doesn't have combat.

I find it stupid that the 0 for combat counts towards the average. So we're punished because we have a violence-free game? If we ignore that, we arrive at an average of 3.6 and are suddenly the second best game in the list!

War is part of transportation management, imagine running a transport company in an area that is suffering from any degree of war. Keep in mind that the combat rating does not necessarily have to do with direct combat (control of troops, strategy, etc), it could simply be a simulation. As long as it is a really good simulation it could get 5/5. It would not have to be something that is persistent in the game either. There could also be effects from war in your area from a simulated war that would be taking place in a different area. Remember that combat is only 1/21 of the score, so if a game scores really high in all the areas it deals with and completely ignores any aspect of war it will still tie or beat other games.

Interesting site. Add more content, perhaps a forum or something, and it could go far!
Yes it seems a fair score to me. Who am I to disagree with an aggregated score from proper gaming sites?

Thanks, we're planning on adding a few notes for every game we can to further inform people if they should should consider giving the game a try.

[lawton27]

War is part of transportation management, imagine running a transport company in an area that is suffering from any degree of war. Keep in mind that the combat rating does not necessarily have to do with direct combat (control of troops, strategy, etc), it could simply be a simulation. As long as it is a really good simulation it could get 5/5. It would not have to be something that is persistent in the game either. There could also be effects from war in your area from a simulated war that would be taking place in a different area.

Adding wartime cargoes to the game would add basically nothing to the base enjoyment factor of the game, yet you argue it would make the game the best ever?

Rather than rating games on what they have and haven't got you should just focus on rating how well they do things which they have got

Combat seems particularly silly as many great games are not violent, why should that count against, infact some many argue it should count in those games favour that they can still be fun without conforming to violence...

</rant>

[PikkaBird]

As long as it is a really good simulation it could get 5/5. It would not have to be something that is persistent in the game either. There could also be effects from war in your area from a simulated war that would be taking place in a different area.

In my GRF the locomotives get painted black and the carriages olive drab during the years of WWII - will that do?

[sophisticatedgamer]

2 points on 'crime and corruption'? I didn't know there were such things in OpenTTD...

Yes, there is some white collar crime where you can "bribe local authorities"

There is also insider trading, but OpenTTD gained and lost a point for this because as we all know the stock market is not realistic at the moment.

An interesting concept, however I did not see anything referring to ease of use:
- Does a game work out of the box with little need for configuration?
- If configurations are required, are they easily accessible and understandable?
It's all and well to rate a game according to it's features, but if they are difficult to access due to onerous and/or seemingly concealed configuration and/or patch requirements, a potential player could soon tire of the frustrations and choose to abandon the effort.

If I'm understanding the issue you bring up correctly yes, this can be found in the ratings of "modifications and options" and "sensual performance".

[planetmaker]

Rating an excellent game like Sokoban on categories like "combat" or "economy" is kinda silly. Similarily silly is to rate OpenTTD in a "combat" section. It's not meant to be violent. It's an asset, not a missing feature. Similarily silly is to rate down something like SimCity for a lack of Jump&Run sequences (or something similar).

Any rating and comparison of games which unconditionally includes every such section in an overall score is flawed by design.

Besides that OpenTTD has even combat: there's the attack helicopter which shoots into flames the factory and oil refinery, the figher plane which bombs the ufo with quite a bit of collateral damage. And there's the curious and cute submarine. Quite enough violence and battle for a transportation manager game with the written goal to be non-violent.

[Drury]

Having a combat element seems a bit stupid as it seemingly counts against OpenTTD because it doesn't have combat.

First you cut down entire forest using dynamite, then you bribe town authority so they let you build a bus crash test site nearby. When that gets boring, you start using real buses with passengers instead.

Then aliens come meddlin' with your dark business, sending suicide UFO's to crash on your buses and land on your rails.

Then terrorists blow up your refinery, which is legit only on papers.

MAFIA, TERRORISTS, ALIEN INVADERS, BUREAUCRATS

Directed by Chris Sawyer and OpenTTD development team.

[sophisticatedgamer]

War is part of transportation management, imagine running a transport company in an area that is suffering from any degree of war. Keep in mind that the combat rating does not necessarily have to do with direct combat (control of troops, strategy, etc), it could simply be a simulation. As long as it is a really good simulation it could get 5/5. It would not have to be something that is persistent in the game either. There could also be effects from war in your area from a simulated war that would be taking place in a different area.

Adding wartime cargoes to the game would add basically nothing to the base enjoyment factor of the game, yet you argue it would make the game the best ever?

No I didn't make that argument, nor did I suggest that. Adding extra cargo for wartime would not count as a good simulation, it might get a game 1 point. When I was referring to war simulation for 5/5 I was referring to a simulation of all war dynamics. War and it's economic and social effects are a very dynamic thing. Not saying a game would have to go all out on it, but to get 5 points it would have to be somewhat in depth and realistic. But to be clear, I was not suggesting what should be done with OpenTTD or what OpenTTD could do to get a 5/5, I was referring to what any game in general would have to have to satisfy a full 5/5 rating in the war category if they didn't have tactical or theatrical combat.

Rather than rating games on what they have and haven't got you should just focus on rating how well they do things which they have got

Any rating and comparison of games which unconditionally includes every such section in an overall score is flawed by design.

Again, the ratings are designed to find the games with the most all encompassing strategic dynamics assuming that they have good ratings in each of the attributes. The ratings are not designed to judge what the creators of the game wanted to do. It is not an insult to the creators, it is simply a different genre of rating for those who want their games the most sophisticated as possible, hence the name sophisticated gamer. By the method you suggest Super Mario Brothers could perhaps receive a near perfect score, which is fine if for different methods of rating, but that is not what we are about. On our charts that game would get close to nothing for rating.

Combat seems particularly silly as many great games are not violent, why should that count against, infact some many argue it should count in those games favour that they can still be fun without conforming to violence...

There does not necessarily need to be violence to simulate the socioeconomic dynamics of war, unless of course the war is on the home front.

Rating an excellent game like Sokoban on categories like "combat" or "economy" is kinda silly. Similarily silly is to rate OpenTTD in a "combat" section. It's not meant to be violent. It's an asset, not a missing feature. Similarily silly is to rate down something like SimCity for a lack of Jump&Run sequences (or something similar).

Sokoban is not the kind of game we want to direct our audience to, the level of sophistication does not meet the requirements to even be judged on the site so it is not an issue. Is it hard, tricky, require intelligence, require skill? Yes, but it does not fall in the field of grand strategy. See my Super Mario Brother comment above. OpenTTD on the other hand is a game with potentially advanced dynamics, and is the kind of game we want to direct our audience to. However, we want to let our audience know that "hey, it does not have this and that, but it has all this." As well as how good it is in the different categories.

Besides that OpenTTD has even combat: there's the attack helicopter which shoots into flames the factory and oil refinery, the figher plane which bombs the ufo with quite a bit of collateral damage. And there's the curious and cute submarine. Quite enough violence and battle for a transportation manager game with the written goal to be non-violent.

You make a point here, it does have some combat simulation after all, though very limited. I have changed the rating, hell even that still beats the combat on 1602 A.D. lol

There are of course going to be people who believe that ratings should be genre specific, but like I said that is for a different genre of rating system. Maybe a rating system that judges peaceful games only, or transport games only... there could be many things. But these rating systems are meant to be all encompassing... remember, we are looking for the maximum potential of sophistication.

With that said, I think this conversation is focusing too much on war, what about the other aspects of reality? Financial Tools is one of my favorite, but I guess that could trigger the same debate regarding OTTD that it did with war depending on who you ask (:

[lawton27]

There does not necessarily need to be violence to simulate the socioeconomic dynamics of war, unless of course the war is on the home front.

I would argue any kind of war implies violence is occurring somewhere, why can't we have world peace? (Of course an exeption would be a cold war Suppose you could try simulate that!). Perhaps I'm being a bit pedantic but it is all in good nature and with the aim to improve your ratings I still maintain the system is flawed .

[sophisticatedgamer]

There does not necessarily need to be violence to simulate the socioeconomic dynamics of war, unless of course the war is on the home front.

I would argue any kind of war implies violence is occurring somewhere, why can't we have world peace? (Of course an exeption would be a cold war Suppose you could try simulate that!). Perhaps I'm being a bit pedantic but it is all in good nature and with the aim to improve your ratings I still maintain the system is flawed .

Yes, cold wars are included in the ratings through elements such as economic dynamics, governmental abilities, financial tools, monetary system, and others. It depends on how the cold war is simulated. If it is a game where trading of resources and goods is direct/literal it would simply be a part of economic dynamics naturally, for the most part. But of course cold wars can extend into currency wars and financial holdings as well.

[Railwaymodeler]

With game goal scripts being introduced into OpenTTD, in theory, won't it be possible to set up a scenario where your transport company is "drafted" into supplying logistics and movement for war goods, be it food, munitions, troops, or machienery? Move a certain amount in a given time?

Railroad Tycoon 2 had some scenarios like this, too.

[bjgttd]

... can't find www.sophisticatedgamer.net: Non-existent domain

I'd also tried some online DNS services with the same (un)success. You've got DNS issues.