Problem with single platform multiple trains

[zooter]

Hi,

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I've tried all combination of signals and am quite tired of finding a solution for this. Basically I'm having a route with a single platform at one side and multiple tracks / trains coming into this platform. However, what happens is that the pathfinder always seems to choose the path that is blocked by another train. How do i make the train choose the platform which is not blocked?

See screenshot. I'm talking about "slundtown valley" station. Ignore the signals. I tried all sorts of combinations but the train at the platform seems to want to move to the nearest right track which is blocked by an imcoming train. thanks in advance for helping out

[Alberth]

Use a waypoint.

Not that currently, the right-most train is in the same block as the exit, the train can thus not leave.

Finally, (for the next time,) if you had done some cutting of the screen shot, it would have been easier to understand what problem you were referring to, now I had to look closely at all station signs before finding the right one.

[zooter]

Hi,

Thanks for the tip and next time i'll definitely crop the screenshot. But using a waypoint doesn't seem correct. All 3 tracks are possibilites to go to the destination. Shouldn't the train (like in real life) use the track that is free and not blocked by a train? Is there some patch in development for this?

I mean if it;s confusing, why can't the train in the station use the center track rather than using the right track that is blocked by another train?

Thanks again

[romazoon]

the right-most train is in the same block as the exit, the train can thus not leave.

that s why... so you should add some signals at other crossings (next to refinery).... or you could replace the pre signals with path signals (and take away signals in front of platform)
edit : all the tracks going from the refinery till the presignals are only one block (cause they lack signals), and if you don t use path signals you canno t have more than one train in one block... wich leads to lock your trains

[Alberth]

Sorry, I meant leftmost train, instead of rightmost train.

Notice how its track gets merged after the tunnel with the middle track.

[zooter]

Ok, let me try explaining problem with another screenshot...pls forgive that i cannot crop since i don't have image editing tool on my laptop (official laptop but using from home -- portable edition in case somebody from office is tracking this

so, i've put some signs to make it more clear....

1) Problem train is the issue

2) The tracks merge onto the station from which problem train has just departed....

3) The two tracks lead to two platforms of the same station (on the other side of map)

4) Now, once the trains "divide" themselves correctly on to the tracks, then there is no issue

5) but at the moment, whatever signal i try to place near problem train, it insists on going to the right side, i.e. towards platform 2

6) The distances might be the cause here, not too sure....platform 2 might be shorter to reach than platform 1 and maybe that's why it's trying to use this route

7) Placing additional signal at platform 1&2 is not a solution as they're very far away and lot of time would be wasted and then it would just be a block at that point

In simple words, HELP!!!!

I'm also putting my savegame just in case somebody wants to play around with the tracks...and please no suggestions of connecting platform 1 & 2 though that might be a last solution i would consider

thanks,

[FooBar]

I marked in an image what Alberth is saying:

Untitled-1.png

(398.51 KiB) Downloaded 1 time

The train on the left is blocking all track marked in red, because all that track is in one signal block. That prevents the train in the station from leaving.

So you need some signals just before the two red lines meet as well.

[romazoon]

this signals set up works.

Sledingworth Transport, 17_09_1999.png

But sincerely, when it comes put two trains on the very same destinations...your setup is the less effective possible, and you canno t even add a third train without having to add a on more line or heavily modificate your tracks...

my advise would be to us each railway track for a single direction (with signals to allow trains following each other)... and only near your station making a junction allowing the choose of platform...

Edit: look at the "RED" Ai lines in your game... this kind of set up would allow much more train to run without locks... even if it s not double track all the way.

[zooter]

hi foobar -- yes i understood what was being said but thank you for marking it and making it more clear

romazoon -- thank you for your advice, i'll see the red AI and try it...however it just feels better to me to have separate tracks rather than a single track ... feels to me that it'll get trains moving faster.. but will try out the red AI method

[FooBar]

this signals set up works.

Sledingworth Transport, 17_09_1999.png

I highly doubt that. Imagine a train at New Prunnville Halte. The second train coming from either "consider as" platforms will just pass the "white" (exit) presignal and continue and stop at the "horizontal yellow" (entry) presignal, essentially blocking the path for the train already at the platform.

[zooter]

this signals set up works.

Sledingworth Transport, 17_09_1999.png

I highly doubt that. Imagine a train at New Prunnville Halte. The second train coming from either "consider as" platforms will just pass the "white" (exit) presignal and continue and stop at the "horizontal yellow" (entry) presignal, essentially blocking the path for the train already at the platform.

so what is the solution to my problem except redesigning the route?

[romazoon]

if you really want to keep it as it is maybe set up in first screenie would work better then (sorry for the my bad solution before, i was just doing this fast... after beign surprised that path signal would not make it for this particular case)
EDIT : DOESNT WORK TOO.... same problem as before....


and if you want to redo the line to increase number of train running on that line follow second and third screenie

[Alberth]

Like this for example

[zooter]

romazoon / alberth,

thank you for taking the timeout to show me possible solutions. But, and this is a big BUT....there is a definite scope for improvement (maybe new feature?) in the pathfinder???

In real life for example, there would be some sort of switching mechanism on tracks...trains wouldn't simply go onto a wrong track and block other trains. If there is a valid path, there would be a switching junction that would guide the trains on to the right path. It's not as simplistic as TTD where trains just take randomly one of 2 paths available...I mean in real life, there is no reverse possibility in trains....trains blocking each other at signals is something I've never heard of....in real life, they would have to send a rescue train to pull out one of the trains...

do you guys think this is a good feature request? Unless off course I'm still missing something here due to my limited knowledge of signals

[romazoon]

I canno t imagine in real life a double track line going from A to B with trains using both line for both direction...as well as having only two train using so much infrastructure... but well.

about train locking eachother in real life... i never heard of it neither and i believe the result would be a frontal crash...not just a lock.

maybe you should check some tutos about how to make some small networks and reuse your tracks for differents services. also learning about signals.
look here : http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD

[Alberth]

In real life for example, there would be some sort of switching mechanism on tracks...trains wouldn't simply go onto a wrong track and block other trains.

No, in real life, somebody has figured out how to move each train in which order, and wrote it down for the signal operator. The operator just follows those instructions. So the game actually makes your life simpler by not needing to define it for every junction and signal.

If there is a valid path, there would be a switching junction that would guide the trains on to the right path.

But directly to the right *is* a correct path. You want to go to the other station, and to the right leads to that destination. The train standing there could also be broken down, or be waiting due to a blockage further in the line. Note that a train does not know where other trains are going to. Also, even if they knew, you cannot use that information, as it would cost too much time.

In a sense, the waypoint I added is a way to express more precisely what you mean, just like the guy that wrote the signal operator instructions.

It's not as simplistic as TTD where trains just take randomly one of 2 paths available...

It is far from random. You didn't give the trains any path. Even in real life, you cannot have two trains in one block. Of course something weird happens then.
I haven't tried what happens if you use PBS signals, but I would not be surprised if that would actually work.

I mean in real life, there is no reverse possibility in trains....trains blocking each other at signals is something I've never heard of....in real life, they would have to send a rescue train to pull out one of the trains...

I have seen trains reversing in the other direction at stations, so I don't buy that.
Even if it were true, openttd is a game that aims for fun, it is not trying to mimic real life. So any wish based solely on in real life X happens thus OpenTTD should do it too, is not accepted.

do you guys think this is a good feature request? Unless off course I'm still missing something here due to my limited knowledge of signals

You can make a feature request, but unless you can exactly specify how the computer should solve this problem, in every situation, without doing costly computations such as examining what other trains do, or looking ahead in time, or other things, the chance of getting it implemented is less than 0.

[zooter]

Hi Yes,

All valid points. I think the problem could be solved in 2 ways

1) I think in real life, train operators communicate via wireless and so do switching operators. I don't think everything is written down and planned ahead. Yes, mostly things will be planned, but changes will be made via wireless communication (at-least that's what I inferred from "Unstoppable"

2) There is some type of signal I"ve seen that indicates the route to be taken ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/12710444/Hand ... n-Railways -- pg 11 .. not sure if this is to indicate which track the train must take (as a warning to the driver in case train moves in the wrong track)

Off course the signal can only probably warn the driver if the train is in the wrong track since the driver cannot chose the track to be taken and it is controlled via the switching junction

I think my whole problem in the realism vs. gameplay is that all I want to do is build tracks and simple signals and the game should take care of the rest But yes this argument could go on...

[Alberth]

1) I think in real life, train operators communicate via wireless and so do switching operators. I don't think everything is written down and planned ahead. Yes, mostly things will be planned, but changes will be made via wireless communication (at-least that's what I inferred from "Unstoppable"

2) There is some type of signal I"ve seen that indicates the route to be taken ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/12710444/Hand ... n-Railways -- pg 11 .. not sure if this is to indicate which track the train must take (as a warning to the driver in case train moves in the wrong track)

Off course the signal can only probably warn the driver if the train is in the wrong track since the driver cannot chose the track to be taken and it is controlled via the switching junction

Comparing to real life is not going to work, the situations are not comparable at all. There are no intelligent train drivers and signal operators inside your computer that understand the aim and know what they can and cannot do specific to the situation. Instead, pre-written receipts that work in general are followed rigidly. (That is, there is no flexibility and no understanding of the special circumstances at all.)
If you manage to come up with a pre-written generic receipt that works better in general, the game can be improved.

I think my whole problem in the realism vs. gameplay is that all I want to do is build tracks and simple signals and the game should take care of the rest But yes this argument could go on...

You can get quite far by just using basic block signals, or just using PBS signals.
(The original game only had basic block signals.)

If that is too much for you, then perhaps your needs are better served by another transport game. OpenTTD has advanced signal capabilities at the cost of having to spend effort in setting up signalling.
If that's not your type of game, perhaps OpenTTD may not be what you are looking for.

[zooter]

All,

Thanks for your help. Argument is closed, the setup works as it does not; just that I need to apply the techniques of OpenTTD

btw, TTD was one of my favorite games of all time and OpenTTD with its enhancements is amazing. You guys are doing a great job and on top of that I get replies to my questions which shows the fan following. thanks for your help again