Japan Set Development

[NekoMaster]

No, see, Patch TTD allows a total of three different track types. No more.

The first two are used for non-electrified track, and electrified track. There's been some fancy coding to allow non-electrified trains to also run on electrified tracks, but to TTD, they are two separate track types out of your allowed 3.

That leaves one more track type for something special. The Japanset uses that for Shinkansens, because real Shinkansens run on a totally different track from the rest of Japanese trains - it's even a different gauge. So you have to have a completely separate network - they can share stations, but that's all.

There's no room for Shinkansens AND Maglev. One or the other. We could have the Maglev as basically a super-fast Shinkansen sharing the same track, but we can't have true Maglev on its own special track without getting rid of Shinkansens entirely, or dumping the distinction between electrified and non-electrified track which would be silly.

I'd love to be proven wrong, though, and have 4 separate track types. But I'd be quite surprised if this is possible.

Um, Im sure that A LOT of people are using OpenTTD now, as TTDpatch hasn't been updated in so long. OPenTTD has Rail, Electrified Rail, Monorail and Maglev

[PikkaBird]

as TTDpatch hasn't been updated in so long.

Not since yesterday, in fact...

[lawton27]

Um, Im sure that A LOT of people are using OpenTTD now, as TTDpatch hasn't been updated in so long. OPenTTD has Rail, Electrified Rail, Monorail and Maglev

However that's a point, the maglev’s could be included in an ottd version, separate from the ttd patch version, (which could even have parameters to what the player wants as the 3rd rail type).

Also, the Shinkansen track has no electric cantery, I presume this is a limitation of ttd patch (possibly ottd too), but if not the ottd version could have cantery on the Shinkansen track.

[Pingaware]

Um, Im sure that A LOT of people are using OpenTTD now, as TTDpatch hasn't been updated in so long.

Please note that there are still many people who use or prefer TTDPatch. Just because it isn't your preferred game doesn't make it acceptable to not produce things for it. And, as Pikkabird said, get your facts straight: TTDPatch has nightlies as well, available here. It's only the front page which isn't updated (I think).

[broodje]

oh, and it is in fact ttdpatch that can have OHLE on maglev tracks, and OTTD that can't. If I'm not mistaken the OTTD dev's want to change the way railtypes work first before they allow centenary on maglev or monorail tracks.

[krtaylor]

Is it possible to code things so that the Maglevs act as Shinkansens in Patch TTD, and on their own tracks in OTTD?

[ATEU2]

No, see, Patch TTD allows a total of three different track types. No more.

The first two are used for non-electrified track, and electrified track. There's been some fancy coding to allow non-electrified trains to also run on electrified tracks, but to TTD, they are two separate track types out of your allowed 3.

That leaves one more track type for something special. The Japanset uses that for Shinkansens, because real Shinkansens run on a totally different track from the rest of Japanese trains - it's even a different gauge. So you have to have a completely separate network - they can share stations, but that's all.

There's no room for Shinkansens AND Maglev. One or the other. We could have the Maglev as basically a super-fast Shinkansen sharing the same track, but we can't have true Maglev on its own special track without getting rid of Shinkansens entirely, or dumping the distinction between electrified and non-electrified track which would be silly.

I'd love to be proven wrong, though, and have 4 separate track types. But I'd be quite surprised if this is possible.

Um, Im sure that A LOT of people are using OpenTTD now, as TTDpatch hasn't been updated in so long. OPenTTD has Rail, Electrified Rail, Monorail and Maglev

(Non-electified)Rail, Electricified Rail are related since non-electric trains (such as steam locomotives, diesel locomotives and DMUs) can run on both Rails and Electrified Rails, therefore, TTD should only 3 seperate types of rail.

[lawton27]

Is it possible to code things so that the Maglevs act as Shinkansens in Patch TTD, and on their own tracks in OTTD?

Own tracks in ottd sounds good, but I wouldn't want the set to be ruined buy seeing Shinkansens and maglev running on the same track, maybe just leave them out of the ttd patch version

[dandan]

Hey lawton, thanks a lot for those maglev sprites. I have given some thought to maglevs before, but unfortunately there are a number of issues, those already mentioned and a few additional ones:

1) As has been pointed out, TTDPatch cannot currently handle more than three railtypes, so maglevs could only be added at the expense of electric trains running on normal rail.

2) In OpenTTD, it would be possible to have Shinkansen tracks replace monorail and have the maglev tracks available. This, in itself, is fairly easy to do, and I have in fact thought about it before, as that would have the additional advantage of adding realistic acceleration to the Shinkansen. What basically prevented me from doing this was the bridge set (Total Bridge Replacement set for Japan Set), which rather few people seem to be using, but I would like to keep it at least working. (You would think that making the bridge set replace monorail instead of maglev would be a fairly trivial matter, as well, but I assure you that it is not.)

3) The current support for Shinkansen tracks in OpenTTD is unsatisfatory because of missing catenary (and wrong strings etc.) There is a patch by Steven that adds catenary to the maglev tracks which I (and presumably a few other Japan Set players) use. So that too would have to be changed (which would be trivial to do, but would still produce even more confusion with two versions of the patch around.)

4) Because of 1)-3), we are kind of waiting for the "newroutes" feature to appear in TTDPatch or OpenTTD or preferably in both, which would allow NewGRF configurable rail types as well as bridge graphics, road crossings etc. independent of the rail set. I have said before that I'm not very keen on touching the track types in the Japan Set again (which are already a big mess of three different rail and three road types on two different kinds of grass!) before this feature is completed. Unfortunately, it is totally unclear what the development status is in either TTDPatch or OpenTTD. (I have asked the OpenTTD devs about this but, understandably, did not receive a very definite answer.) If we knew that this feature would not become available within the next one or two years, I might consider to start working on railtypes again with what we have now. But as it is, I'm currently lazy and prefer to wait for the Powers to give us newroutes.

5) All these technicalities aside, if we want to add maglevs to the Japan Set, they should start to appear around 2020 if I am correctly informed about the plans for Japanese maglev in reality. But then we should also have some ordinary trains appearing in between and along with the maglevs. I'm not against adding a futuristic aspect to the Japan Set, but adding only maglevs seems a bit pointless and unrealistic to me.

6) Finally, I do like those maglev sprites, but I think they could still do with some improvements, especially concerning lighting. But perhaps some of the sprite artists around here could comment on that?

I'm sorry that all I can offer for now is this long list of annoying little concerns. I'm not saying no to adding maglevs in principle, but I'm afraid I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Of course, if you, lawton, or anybody else absolutely wants to see them in game, there is a way (at least for OpenTTD): Provide a grf that adds your maglev trains as monorail and that replaces monorail with maglev sprites. It would be a hack (and the naming of the rail types would be confusing), but it would not be very hard to do.

[stevenh]

Firstly, Lawton, great sprites... I really think they'd fit in well with the set.

2) In OpenTTD, it would be possible to have Shinkansen tracks replace monorail and have the maglev tracks available. This, in itself, is fairly easy to do, and I have in fact thought about it before, as that would have the additional advantage of adding realistic acceleration to the Shinkansen. What basically prevented me from doing this was the bridge set (Total Bridge Replacement set for Japan Set), which rather few people seem to be using, but I would like to keep it at least working. (You would think that making the bridge set replace monorail instead of maglev would be a fairly trivial matter, as well, but I assure you that it is not.)

dandan, do you reckon we should push shinkansen to the monorail 'for-the-greater-good' anyway? This then means that an additional GRF would be much simpler... Lawton's sprites created for the Japanese maglevs are quite nice and it'd add that extra level of playability for servers... as long as i'm not owning the map
Also thanks for reminding me to get the bridge set on the server... I might break it apart and recode it if required, as i imagine it's just a lot of manual labour over actual brainpower to get the bridges of maglev and monorail to swap?

Anyway, just my 2c.

[broodje]

I'm currently enjoying a japan based game, but unfortunately I'm stuck with the wrong/old bridges. I've been trying to get the japan bridges GRF, but the link on your website is broken, and I can't find the file anywhere else. Does any of you know what happened to the file and where I can find it?

[stevenh]

It's now on Bananas or here

[broodje]

Ah!, a case of bad searching then, sorry for that. The thing is though that all parts of the japan set start with 'japan' except the bridge set. Wouldn't it be more logical to call it 'Japanese total bridge renewal' or something like that?

[krtaylor]

Because it's not technically part of the Japan set, it was done by a different team. It is available on the Japanset website along with the rest.

[ATEU2]

Um, Im sure that A LOT of people are using OpenTTD now, as TTDpatch hasn't been updated in so long. OPenTTD has Rail, Electrified Rail, Monorail and Maglev

However that's a point, the maglev’s could be included in an ottd version, separate from the ttd patch version, (which could even have parameters to what the player wants as the 3rd rail type).

Also, the Shinkansen track has no electric cantery, I presume this is a limitation of ttd patch (possibly ottd too), but if not the ottd version could have cantery on the Shinkansen track.

This is a good suggestion and since OpenTTD support multiple GRF IDs?, more trains and trams can be included.

[dandan]

ATEU2, I am going to add your KIHA 181 to the train set. Two questions:

1) The roof of the wagons is much darker than the roof of the driving cabs. Is that intentional?
2) What should be the end date for this train (the latest purchase date)?

[dandan]

Small update to the buildings. Fixed a problem that resulted in way too many fountains in towns of a certain size.

[krtaylor]

Website updated.

[ATEU2]

ATEU2, I am going to add your KIHA 181 to the train set. Two questions:

1) The roof of the wagons is much darker than the roof of the driving cabs. Is that intentional?
2) What should be the end date for this train (the latest purchase date)?

1. It is because of a huge heatsink (for cooling the 590hp engine) is located on roof of non-driving car of Kiha 181 series (i.e. Kiha 180, standard class and Kiro 180, first class). Smoke released by the engine blackened the heatsink continuously so heatsink of non-driving cars are black as I saw in the photos of this type, like this:


For driving car (i.e. Kiha 181), the cooling device is located inside a machinery room behind the driving cab, which is longer than Kiha 82, so there aren't heatsink on the roof.

2. I haven't a deep idea about this. Actually, JNR stop manufacturing new Kiha 181s in 1972, but it is very bad to set it to 1972 since we cannot see JR Shikoku and JR West version of Kiha 181 in TTD, and the time is very short. As I know, the last modification of Kiha 181 by JR west (excluding repaint) is 1996, which is adding ATS-P device to it. Besides, in 2001 JR West's Kiha 187 series, which replaces most Kiha 181s, is put on service in 2001. I think it is nice to set as these: in 1987, new Kiha 181s are painted on either JR Shikoku or JR West liveries (which is not very real since JR West keep the original JNR livery of Kiha 181 until 2000s), and until 2001 or few years later this type can be purchased. Of course, any other ideas about it is nice.

[dandan]

1. It is because of a huge heatsink

Ah, that explains it. Alright then, I will code the sprites as they are now.

2. I haven't a deep idea about this. Actually, JNR stop manufacturing new Kiha 181s in 1972, but it is very bad to set it to 1972 since we cannot see JR Shikoku and JR West version of Kiha 181 in TTD, and the time is very short. As I know, the last modification of Kiha 181 by JR west (excluding repaint) is 1996, which is adding ATS-P device to it. Besides, in 2001 JR West's Kiha 187 series, which replaces most Kiha 181s, is put on service in 2001. I think it is nice to set as these: in 1987, new Kiha 181s are painted on either JR Shikoku or JR West liveries (which is not very real since JR West keep the original JNR livery of Kiha 181 until 2000s), and until 2001 or few years later this type can be purchased. Of course, any other ideas about it is nice.

Actually, I am in the middle of changing the way liveries work in the Japanese Train Set, which is also why the next update is taking a while. It will be possible to refit the old Kiha 181s to JR West/Shikoku livery in 1987. But still I think the train should not expire too early. So I suggest 1996, which seems reasonable gameplay-wise (and it's the time of the last technical modification).