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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:01 am 
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Transport Empire Moderator
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Greetings everyone.

I would like to sum up some things on our project.

This all started in year 2003 with a random note by a certain individual, whom shall not be named, how to make TTD succesor. From that mom
ent 4 years have passed. Since then all this 'project' has achieved was an endless discussion in void and a few disorganized pieces of cod
e.

Ie - nothing. Four years and we haven't got closer to our goal by an inch.

Frankly I am fed up with this. I'm not without a guilt here.

Look at OTTD. Started small, yet managed to grow, scratch that, outgrow TE by several orders of magnitude. Look at TTDpatch. Started as on
e man effort now boasts several developers and artists, in spite of the horrific grf format. You know what is the reason of success?

THERE WAS NO AD INFINITUM DISCUSSION. THERE WAS ACTION.

Therefore I want to say this.

DISCUSSION ABOUT TRANSPORT EMPIRE ENDS NOW!

We need action and direction. I made the following decisions (yes, this is effectively a coup).

1. We shall make 2 distinct paths of development
- code - responsible for game code
- media - responsible for game media (models, textures, sounds)
2. We shall implement directly the following vanilla ttd gameplay aspects::
- industries from temprate climate
- economic model
- behavior of towns, stationas and all game objects
3. We shall copy the following sets for our projects
(copy means - we shall use most of the logic and provide our own media)
- UKRS for trains
- LongVehicles for trucks and buses
- PlaneSet for planes
- NewShips for ships
- Total town replacement for buildings
- other not stated here shall be taken from TTD temprate climate (trees, rocks etc)
4. Railroads will work as in TTD except for track construction which shall be identical to Locomotion
5. Roads shall be also diagonal
6. The geometric scale is frozen at:
16 metres = 1 tile side. All game objects shall conform to the real scale.

PERIOD. All fancy ttdpatch/other features we have spoken about are POSTPONED until the following steps are completed.

Additionally. I declare PIONIEER LAW - this means if you are the first to provide a workable solution, this solution shall be used. No discussions, no questions asked.

I would also point out, that this is not a point of discussion. This is a declaration and a direction I take when developing my game engine. Because I am now doing just that. I currently cannot commit my code, but as soon as I can, I shall do that (this should happen about the beginning of april).

BTW - i am using:

Ogre 3d rendering engine for graphics
OIS for input
Boost library

I am developing as multiplatform as possible.

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the sprites above were drawn using 1337 5K|LLZ
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:13 am 
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uzurpator wrote:
DISCUSSION ABOUT TRANSPORT EMPIRE ENDS NOW!

uzurpator wrote:
THERE WAS NO AD INFINITUM DISCUSSION. THERE WAS ACTION.

Sure, sure, but you can't do a thing without communication. And I'm also sure that the TTDP devs did have long talks about NFO, there would be something horribly wrong when one person decides to implement such a big thing in such a project without telling anyone.

uzurpator wrote:
IThis is a declaration and a direction I take when developing my game engine. Because I am now doing just that.

BTW - i am using:

Ogre 3d rendering engine for graphics
OIS for input
Boost library

I am developing as multiplatform as possible.

We decided to go with TRoS some time ago. We had the unfortunate event of the SVN server (the TRoS one) going down but it is up again since two days and we're working on it quite hard again. I would also like to note that the engine will have some of the most advanced stuff you will come around, more advanced than Ogre 3D probably can. I have seen and heard all the ideas of Seniltai and seen the same white board over and over again ;).
And TRoS has finaly come to the stage where there are tools for creating content and you don't need to hack into it to use certain features (although some stuff stays for a while).
TRoS is based on SDL which means it is fast and cross platform, we further try to support as many operating systems as possible but cannot do that currently because we only have access to the most easily obtainable operating systems.

It is also usefull to come up with your code immedeatly when making such a statement as this falls into the same category of everything else that happened in the past years of the project.

uzurpator wrote:
I made the following decisions (yes, this is effectively a coup).

Did you happen to forget that Hyronymus was busy with fusing all the decisions together and making one comprehensive story of it, so basicly 95% of the decision making is already done.



You can't force people to start working on TE now, everyone who offered help wants to do it in their spare time, only when you start paying people you can demand things.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:40 am 
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uzurpator wrote:
Sure, sure, but you can't do a thing without communication. And I'm also sure that the TTDP devs did have long talks about NFO, there would be something horribly wrong when one person decides to implement such a big thing in such a project without telling anyone.


Actually there was none afair. NFO was made solely by patchman. Anyhoo - if communication built games - we'd have 5 trasport empires and 6th in the making.

Quote:
We decided to go with TRoS some time ago. We had the unfortunate event of the SVN server (the TRoS one) going down but it is up again since two days and we're working on it quite hard again. I would also like to note that the engine will have some of the most advanced stuff you will come around, more advanced than Ogre 3D probably can. I have seen and heard all the ideas of Seniltai and seen the same white board over and over again ;).


Lovely. Where is the svn? No code - no thx.

Quote:
And TRoS has finaly come to the stage where there are tools for creating content and you don't need to hack into it to use certain features (although some stuff stays for a while).


No code - no thx.

Quote:
TRoS is based on SDL which means it is fast and cross platform, we further try to support as many operating systems as possible but cannot do that currently because we only have access to the most easily obtainable operating systems.


So is what I am developing.

Quote:
It is also usefull to come up with your code immedeatly when making such a statement as this falls into the same category of everything else that happened in the past years of the project.


And I shall - currenly clearing up the issue of the svn server with Owen. besides - I have no _technical possibility_ to submit code. Unless I get a possibility to submit earlier, i can do it no earlier then 1st of april.

Quote:
Did you happen to forget that Hyronymus was busy with fusing all the decisions together and making one comprehensive story of it, so basicly 95% of the decision making is already done.


yea - the DD is finialized for the fourth time now, if my memory serves me.

Quote:
You can't force people to start working on TE now, everyone who offered help wants to do it in their spare time, only when you start paying people you can demand things.


Neither I want to. However I want to get this project running. Currently it is an amorphous body where everyone does whatever they wish and in effect we get nothing. Up to now we had 4 engine startups, three or four prototypes and twenty of people "willing to do stuff". Hellfire is gone, PJ is gone to name a few.

This project has no direction, if it doesn't get one, then it is effectively dead. For the past 4 years the "team" couldnt agree on most basic stuff, and frankly - I'm sick of it.

_________________
Image
the sprites above were drawn using 1337 5K|LLZ
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:21 am 
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Yay! Though uzurpator might take it to the extremes, I agree with him. If we can just get a game working, we can always change certain aspects/features like TTDPatch and OpenTTD did.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:07 am 
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Some clarification:

The Action3/2/1/0 system started small, then grow up to allow all these things.

OTTD started with TTD code converted (so it has a more or less working base)

And I think I have told to start coding already the last two years :-)

I do think it's the right step. The only thing you should keep in mind to have stuff properly documented. (Better have more code comments then less, they can always be stripped) and to keep in mind that it should be somehow multiplayer compatible. Means, don't have the code wait for code pieces to be done in the same frame. (Event based systems can help here)

If you have something like zugspiel looking (without being a hack) you will attract other people. And as soon as you have something that works, people will commit small new stuff. Say, you need a critical mass of working stuff before other people will join the dev team...


Last edited by eis_os on Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:20 am 
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uzurpator wrote:
DISCUSSION ABOUT TRANSPORT EMPIRE ENDS NOW!

Good. I've been sick and tired of all these discussions for years.

Quote:
3. We shall copy the following sets for our projects
(copy means - we shall use most of the logic and provide our own media)
- UKRS for trains
- LongVehicles for trucks and buses
- PlaneSet for planes
- NewShips for ships
- Total town replacement for buildings
- other not stated here shall be taken from TTD temprate climate (trees, rocks etc)

We'll have to make new models for each set, and you said what gets made first, will get added. So far, I've made a few aircraft and a few models for Dutch trains, so I guess they'll be used. As for aircraft, I'll probably roughly follow the planeset anyway. I like the UK renewal set, so if I can easily find blueprints for that, I'll probably make some.

Quote:
4. Railroads will work as in TTD except for track construction which shall be identical to Locomotion
5. Roads shall be also diagonal

The Locomotion way is horrible, but if you want to make it that way, it's ok. As long as it wouldn't need a complete engine rewrite later to get freeform infrastructure.

Quote:
6. The geometric scale is frozen at:
16 metres = 1 tile side. All game objects shall conform to the real scale.

Whatever floats your boat, although I'd rather work with more rounded figures (20 or 10) myself.

Quote:
Ogre 3d rendering engine for graphics

Perhaps you should talk with the Tros guys. No sense in reinventing the wheel.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:23 am 
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Arathorn wrote:
Quote:
3. We shall copy the following sets for our projects
(copy means - we shall use most of the logic and provide our own media)
- UKRS for trains
- LongVehicles for trucks and buses
- PlaneSet for planes
- NewShips for ships
- Total town replacement for buildings
- other not stated here shall be taken from TTD temprate climate (trees, rocks etc)

We'll have to make new models for each set, and you said what gets made first, will get added. So far, I've made a few aircraft and a few models for Dutch trains, so I guess they'll be used. As for aircraft, I'll probably roughly follow the planeset anyway. I like the UK renewal set, so if I can easily find blueprints for that, I'll probably make some.


Hmm... true, you already made some Dutch trains. Since some Dutch trains are made, and like half of the dev team comes from the Netherlands, it makes sense to create a Dutch trainset, in stead of a British, IMO.

_________________
Contributor to the The 2cc Set and Dutch Trainset. Inventor of the Metro concept. Retired Graphics Artist.
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Download TT | Latest TTDPatch | OpenTTD | OpenTTDCoop | BaNaNaS: OpenTTD content system | 2048² OTTD scenario of the Netherlands
GRF Codec | GRF Crawler | GRF Maker | Usefull graphics & tools sites | NML Documentation Wiki | NFO Documentation Wiki
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:44 am 
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Should we make a separate forum for graphics? It won't be very high-volume, but it might make the graphics more visible, so we may get more artists, and I can make a few stickies for important information without fearing to clutter this forum.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:51 am 
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Since media is one of the 2 distinct paths of development, I think a media forum would sure be good.

Quote:
1. We shall make 2 distinct paths of development
- code - responsible for game code
- media - responsible for game media (models, textures, sounds)

_________________
Contributor to the The 2cc Set and Dutch Trainset. Inventor of the Metro concept. Retired Graphics Artist.
Image Image
Download TT | Latest TTDPatch | OpenTTD | OpenTTDCoop | BaNaNaS: OpenTTD content system | 2048² OTTD scenario of the Netherlands
GRF Codec | GRF Crawler | GRF Maker | Usefull graphics & tools sites | NML Documentation Wiki | NFO Documentation Wiki
All my graphics are licensed under GPL. "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:45 am 
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I bet that as soon as a minimal working engine allows to introduce objects such as trains etc, and see them ingame, more than one lurker would spontaneously contribute with some graphics. :wink:


Hopes are high for this project.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:38 pm 
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uzurpator wrote:
uzurpator wrote:
Quote:
We decided to go with TRoS some time ago. We had the unfortunate event of the SVN server (the TRoS one) going down but it is up again since two days and we're working on it quite hard again. I would also like to note that the engine will have some of the most advanced stuff you will come around, more advanced than Ogre 3D probably can. I have seen and heard all the ideas of Seniltai and seen the same white board over and over again ;).


Lovely. Where is the svn? No code - no thx.

Quote:
And TRoS has finaly come to the stage where there are tools for creating content and you don't need to hack into it to use certain features (although some stuff stays for a while).


No code - no thx.

A quick search on the forums could have helped you out here, a look through the first or second page might even have given you the address of the SVN server...
And you can also upload your own code to the TE SVN server (if that's still running), I don't know the exact address atm though.

Arathorn wrote:
Should we make a separate forum for graphics? It won't be very high-volume, but it might make the graphics more visible, so we may get more artists, and I can make a few stickies for important information without fearing to clutter this forum.

That is a good idea :). And on the subject of graphics, I think it would be easy to "steal" models from other games like MSTS and convert them to a format that the graphics engine understand. This is just to have something to work with, we can replace them with our own models later on.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:19 pm 
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XeryusTC wrote:
And on the subject of graphics, I think it would be easy to "steal" models from other games like MSTS and convert them to a format that the graphics engine understand. This is just to have something to work with, we can replace them with our own models later on.


I think that's only necessary if we got no-one willing to model models for TE.

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Download TT | Latest TTDPatch | OpenTTD | OpenTTDCoop | BaNaNaS: OpenTTD content system | 2048² OTTD scenario of the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Purno wrote:
Hmm... true, you already made some Dutch trains. Since some Dutch trains are made, and like half of the dev team comes from the Netherlands, it makes sense to create a Dutch trainset, in stead of a British, IMO.


Agreed. Dutch it is.

There is dutch set in locomotion - since it has to have models. Could you try to retrieve them?

_________________
Image
the sprites above were drawn using 1337 5K|LLZ
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:25 pm 
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XeryusTC wrote:
A quick search on the forums could have helped you out here, a look through the first or second page might even have given you the address of the SVN server...


Linky pls - I cannot find any (or: i can find 4 and I dunno which one you mean).

Quote:
And you can also upload your own code to the TE SVN server (if that's still running), I don't know the exact address atm though.


svn://zernebok.com/trunk/ - dunno if it works tho.

_________________
Image
the sprites above were drawn using 1337 5K|LLZ
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:27 pm 
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The NS-Pack will be taken offline due to no interrest anymore. No futher updates will come.

The ChrisTrains conversions will remain on [url]ww.christrains.com[/url]
No other models then the official ChrisTrains conversion will be given for download.

Apparently he only makes models for MSTS. Do you know whether these models can be used for TE without problem? Because I'm afraid they could be far too detailed for TE.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:28 pm 
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uzurpator wrote:
XeryusTC wrote:
A quick search on the forums could have helped you out here, a look through the first or second page might even have given you the address of the SVN server...


Linky pls - I cannot find any (or: i can find 4 and I dunno which one you mean)./quote]
http://tros.ath.cx/subversion, password stuff is still not really fixed though so you need to read the message ;).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:32 pm 
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Arathorn wrote:
The NS-Pack will be taken offline due to no interrest anymore. No futher updates will come.

The ChrisTrains conversions will remain on [url]ww.christrains.com[/url]
No other models then the official ChrisTrains conversion will be given for download.

Apparently he only makes models for MSTS. Do you know whether these models can be used for TE without problem? Because I'm afraid they could be far too detailed for TE.


We'll buy stronger graphics cards. Fetch the models :)

_________________
Image
the sprites above were drawn using 1337 5K|LLZ
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Tycoon
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Arathorn wrote:
The NS-Pack will be taken offline due to no interrest anymore. No futher updates will come.

The ChrisTrains conversions will remain on [url]ww.christrains.com[/url]
No other models then the official ChrisTrains conversion will be given for download.

Apparently he only makes models for MSTS. Do you know whether these models can be used for TE without problem? Because I'm afraid they could be far too detailed for TE.

There are simple model format conversion tools which can help us out.

_________________
Don't panic - My YouTube channel - Follow me on twitter (@XeryusTC) - Play Tribes: Ascend - Tired of Dropbox? Try SpiderOak (use this link and we both get 1GB extra space)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:44 pm 
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Wouldn't it be more fun to actually model the vehicles ourselves? I mean, by the time the devs got code to support trains, I'm sure there's a few train models available to test with (in fact, some are already done, IIRC).

_________________
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Download TT | Latest TTDPatch | OpenTTD | OpenTTDCoop | BaNaNaS: OpenTTD content system | 2048² OTTD scenario of the Netherlands
GRF Codec | GRF Crawler | GRF Maker | Usefull graphics & tools sites | NML Documentation Wiki | NFO Documentation Wiki
All my graphics are licensed under GPL. "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:46 pm 
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Purno wrote:
Wouldn't it be more fun to actually model the vehicles ourselves? I mean, by the time the devs got code to support trains, I'm sure there's a few train models available to test with (in fact, some are already done, IIRC).


Would you practice what you preach?

_________________
Image
the sprites above were drawn using 1337 5K|LLZ
All art and vehicle stats I authored for TT and derivatives are as of now PUBLIC DOMAIN! Use as you see fit
Just say NO to the TT fan-art sprite licensing madness. Public domain your art as well.


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