Mandatory Service Depots at High Traffic Stations

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BridgeBurner
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Mandatory Service Depots at High Traffic Stations

Post by BridgeBurner »

Okay this has been driving me nuts the past couple of days and has pointed out a major flaw in both vanilla OTTD signalling and presignalling as well. I have plenty of screenshots to illustrate my point, so please bear with me.

Okay, first, here is the situation:

Image

Here we see what should be a pretty busy station. It can receive 4 different kinds of raw materials and turn them into goods. As you can see, the main trunk line that leads to this station dead-ends here. The trunk itself splits off a couple hundred tiles up the road, disseminating traffic nicely. In other words, the main trunk line can take a lot more traffic in needs be. I also plan on bumping up my car length to the max soon, which will put a whole heck of a lot more product into and out of this station. My problem isn't however, with this specific game, but how in general to include mandatory depot stops into very high volume stations. I know that maybe mandatory service stops maybe aren't 100% necessary, but I'd still like to solve this problem.

I had before used one depot with the track setup such that the trains had to stop there before moving into the station branches. One depot is far too slow and traffic would often backup as it waited to enter the depot. I had, in previous games, devised this diamond-type depot entry which allowed trains to choose the top or the bottom depot, essentially doubling my depot processing rate. It's worked okay in other games, but every now and again I run into troubles. The trouble is, as you can see in this first screenshot, that trains sometimes refuse to choose one or the other depot and instead stop at the light and wait for the train ahead of them. At first, I thought the problem lay in the fact that when the first train completely enters the depot, the light outside the depot would flash green for a second, perhaps inducing the second train to think the path was clear. I found this later to not be the problem. I tried a different configurations without luck.

Image

You can see what a disaster this abomination is. My thinking was, hey if the station branching and presignalling works so well, why not include the depots into the mix and hope they continue to operate as planned. The problem here, I think, is that each depot entry point has an invisible signal on it, which can fool the presignal into believing a line is open when it's not. I decided it was better to not mess with the station branching as pictured in the first shot since it worked so well.

Image

I thought I was onto something with this layout. However, I witnessed an odd behavior that really defied the notion of presignalling. It seems that trains don't "look ahead" at all, not even a little bit. In this shot, you can see a train that has passed up 3 green lights to come to a stop at the last red light. Note that the light it's stopped at was red when it entered the presignalling block and continued to be red until reached the light. I have tried several permutations of signalling at this last configuration of track, and nothing works. Oddly, about 5% of the trains entering the station will choose a depot but the last and, for a brief moment, this interchange will work as planned. I've watched for these moments and tried to figure out what was different about them that would cause them to actually work, but I can't see any difference.

Can anyone offer any insight as to how I could make this work? I understand that I could maybe try suck machinations AFTER the station, but I would probably be at risk of the same thing happening. I am looking for a completely airtight solution to satisfy my mandatory depot stop mania. Thank you.
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Griff
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Post by Griff »

Unless my knowledge of pre-signals is completely wrong. Looking at your last screenshot, i fear you've botched up the signals. Take a look at my enclosed screenshot. This is how i would have signaled it.
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Post by Brianetta »

We un-learned two-way signals for pathing choices with NPF. Now we have to re-learn it. I blame KUDr. (-:
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Post by richk67 »

What pathfinder and version is this with? If original pathfinder, then that hates depots with no "bypass" line.

In your final one, the logic will actually go... can I route past depot 1 to the station... it cannot see past the depot, so continues. Can I route past depot 2? etc... finally "Can I route past depot 4? No, but Im out of options.

What you need is a separate lane that if it had no signals on, would be a bypass around the depot. Place a reversed signal to act as a no-entry. The pathfinder will say "I can route to the station via here", and then obeys the signals.

Also, only YAPF can do this arrangement without two-way "choice" signals. Whenever you want a train to pick between equal non-routed alternatives, you need to have two-way signals.
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BridgeBurner
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Post by BridgeBurner »

richk67 wrote:What pathfinder and version is this with? If original pathfinder, then that hates depots with no "bypass" line.

In your final one, the logic will actually go... can I route past depot 1 to the station... it cannot see past the depot, so continues. Can I route past depot 2? etc... finally "Can I route past depot 4? No, but Im out of options.

What you need is a separate lane that if it had no signals on, would be a bypass around the depot. Place a reversed signal to act as a no-entry. The pathfinder will say "I can route to the station via here", and then obeys the signals.

Also, only YAPF can do this arrangement without two-way "choice" signals. Whenever you want a train to pick between equal non-routed alternatives, you need to have two-way signals.
Okay this makes some sort of sense to me. I needed to hear the train's logic sort of "talked out". I'm still confused as to why I'd need two-way signals here, but I guess for now I'll have to take your word for it.

FYI, I'm using non-NPF pathfinding. Should I switch that? Will it change the way I think about this interchange? Also, I'm using the latest stable release of OTTD.
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Post by BridgeBurner »

I turned on global pathfinding and the interchange worked perfectly without the need for a false bypass. 4 depots is a bit much, considering the trains really can't enter the system that fast, however that may change. Thanks for all the help.
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Post by sc79 »

I'm still confused as to why I'd need two-way signals here, but I guess for now I'll have to take your word for it.
With NPF (or YAPF) on, you dont. If you're using the old pathfinder, you would.
FYI, I'm using non-NPF pathfinding. Should I switch that? Will it change the way I think about this interchange? Also, I'm using the latest stable release of OTTD.
It will be far easier, but it does eat resources, so if you have an older system, you may find it becomes an issue with a lot of vehicles.

But yeah, that setup in the bottom screenshot works almost perfectly with NPF on (except trains will choose a blocked depot every now and again because the signals flick to green for a moment while the train is in the depot).
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