UK Election 2015

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orudge
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by orudge »

Chrill wrote:Sinn Fein got 0.6% of the vote and 4 seats. The Green Party got 3.8% of the vote and 1 seat. It just doesn't seem fair.
It's not.

We vote for our local MP, and our local MP only - there's one seat we can vote for, and it gets filled with one person. That can be good in that there is a direct local connection with your vote. However, it can also mean that nationally, things can be skewed. Going by votes alone, UKIP ought to have had 80 or so seats - they have 1.

What I could maybe see is a form of proportional representation where we have "regional" constituencies of some sort (e.g., North East Scotland comprising 6-8 seats or however many there are), with seats allocated proportionally based upon preference votes. This is basically what happens in the Scottish Parliament, though we also have a FPTP constituency element as well. The Conservatives aren't going to be keen to change voting system though, but our system really isn't fit for purpose any more.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Pingaware »

orudge wrote:
Chrill wrote:Sinn Fein got 0.6% of the vote and 4 seats. The Green Party got 3.8% of the vote and 1 seat. It just doesn't seem fair.
What I could maybe see is a form of proportional representation where we have "regional" constituencies of some sort (e.g., North East Scotland comprising 6-8 seats or however many there are), with seats allocated proportionally based upon preference votes. This is basically what happens in the Scottish Parliament, though we also have a FPTP constituency element as well. The Conservatives aren't going to be keen to change voting system though, but our system really isn't fit for purpose any more.
I can see this being suggested pretty soon. Given how much FPTP has marginalised the far right as well as the far left in this election, it's going to produce a whole new crop of opposition for the system, which is no bad thing.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Griff »

There was a referendum in 2011 regarding whether we switch to Alternative Vote (preferential voting) or stick with the current first-past-the-post system. 67.9% of voters chose to stick with the FPTP system.

Mind you, that was a 42.2% voter turnout, so not even representative of half of the nation.

Oh well.

Can't force people to use their hard fought for right to vote.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Redirect Left »

Griff wrote: Can't force people to use their hard fought for right to vote.
Well we could do what Australia does, and make it mandatory or else risk of a fine...
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Griff »

Redirect Left wrote:
Griff wrote: Can't force people to use their hard fought for right to vote.
Well we could do what Australia does, and make it mandatory or else risk of a fine...
Perhaps. But are we then getting a representative view of the will of the electorate, or will the results be skewed because 40% of the electorate are just voting because they 'have' to and could be putting a tick in any old box?
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Redirect Left »

They could just walk in, get a piece of paper and put it straight into the ballot box, or otherwise spoil it if they don't want to vote.

Polling is done in a way that it doesn't identify who did it, so they wouldn't know if you spoilt it purposefully. Happens each election in Aus.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Griff »

Redirect Left wrote:They could just walk in, get a piece of paper and put it straight into the ballot box, or otherwise spoil it if they don't want to vote.

Polling is done in a way that it doesn't identify who did it, so they wouldn't know if you spoilt it purposefully. Happens each election in Aus.

But surely, if we take this General Election, we had a 66.1% turnout, and the conservatives won with 331 seats. If the rest of the 33.9% had to vote under penalty of fine and they invalidated their ballot. Yes, on paper it'd look good as we had an election with a 100% turnout, but ultimately the results stayed the same and the conservatives won with 331 seats.

I don't see that forced voting is anymore representative of will than voting if you want to.

I'm only complaining because facebook is full of people complaining about the votes of this election or that election and yet they didn't actually vote! Imagine what 33.9% of genuine votes would have done to this general election.

Perhaps I'm just an idealist when I think everyone should show an interest in politics and how our country is run.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Redirect Left »

I never once said it would be more representative...
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Chrill »

In Sweden, we have voluntary voting for any citizen over the age of 18. For a political party to get one of the 349 seats, you need to secure 4% of the popular vote (so as to prevent numerous small political parties holding 1-2 seats each and creating a very inefficient government). Above that, you simply secure the same percentage of seats as you did votes. Admittedly, that 4% limit is a bit high to me. Last election, I voted for a party that ended up at around 3%.

Still, it means you need over 50% of the popular vote to secure a majority of seats.
orudge wrote:What I could maybe see is a form of proportional representation where we have "regional" constituencies of some sort (e.g., North East Scotland comprising 6-8 seats or however many there are), with seats allocated proportionally based upon preference votes. This is basically what happens in the Scottish Parliament, though we also have a FPTP constituency element as well. The Conservatives aren't going to be keen to change voting system though, but our system really isn't fit for purpose any more.
This I can understand as long as it's fairly represented. 200/650 people live in a specific region, that region holds 200/650 seats? This means regional politicians can easily secure a seat in the big national elections. You don't get regional political parties in Sweden, but then again we aren't made up of several areas (Scotland, N. Ireland, etc.) with varying political and cultural ideas.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Griff »

Redirect Left wrote:I never once said it would be more representative...
Oh no, don't get me wrong. I didn't say you did. You simply said that forced voting is an solution to low turnout.

I'm just making the point that it wouldn't change anything.

Some might argue that AV is a better voting process than FPTP. It's just curious that half the population doesn't vote on a vote where a favorable vote could make future votes fairer for all. So we don't vote in said vote and moan when the next vote puts the Tories back in.

FYI, I voted Tory, so I've nothing against them being in power. I'm just rambling like a grumpy old man.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by FLHerne »

Party: Votes per MP
(sorted by no. of MPs)
-------------------------------
Tories: 34,323
Labour: 40, 182
SNP: 25,972
Lib Dems: 299,669
DUP: 23,033
Sinn Fein: 44, 058
Plaid: 60,565
SDL: 33,270
UUP: 57,468
UKIP: 3,871,226
Greens: 1,152,568

This means that two MPs between them, out of 650+, represent a sixth of the electorate. UKIP voters got less than 1% of the representation per vote compared to the Tories. :shock:
If there's a better argument for real electoral reform (rather than the mangled compromise that was the AV proposal), I can't think of one.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Redirect Left »

Griff wrote: Oh no, don't get me wrong. I didn't say you did. You simply said that forced voting is an solution to low turnout.
I was responding to your claim you can't force people to vote. You can at least get them to touch the ballot paper, but due to how polling is conducted, forcing them to actually vote realistically isn't going to happen at all. You might just end up with 40% more votes for things like UKIP in protest votes against what the Govt are forcing them to do


If we had proportional representation, it would have looked a bit like this
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Chris »

Redirect Left wrote:Polling is done in a way that it doesn't identify who did it, so they wouldn't know if you spoilt it purposefully. Happens each election in Aus.
Sorry to shatter your illusion but it isn't in fact a secret ballot. Each ballot paper is numbered and they write down what number ballot paper you are given. What is meant to happen is the votes are counted and then the ballot papers are sealed in a box and delivered by the returning officer to a clerk in the chancery. The seal is only to be broken by a high court order or by parliament, in order to investigate allegations of electoral fraud.

This doesn't happen though. The ballot papers aren't sealed and delivered under security etc., they are usually just taken to a warehouse, and certainly in the past the security services went through the communist votes and traced back who voted for them

Watch them write down next to your name what ballot paper they've given you next time you go to vote
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Redirect Left »

Chris wrote:
Redirect Left wrote:Polling is done in a way that it doesn't identify who did it, so they wouldn't know if you spoilt it purposefully. Happens each election in Aus.
Sorry to shatter your illusion but it isn't in fact a secret ballot.
I did wonder what the number they referenced was when giving me the form. Seems a bit silly then considering you can't make it obvious who made the vote when they can find out anyway if they really needed to. Either way, people would still vote stupidly, the ones who are all screw the police and such. Does that mean the Government have a big warehouse somewhere with decades worth of ballot papers so they can reference back in case of later allegations? :P
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Dave »

It's illegal to trace it back without good reason.

And I thought in Australia you could do whatever you liked on the ballot paper, provided you showed up?
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Re: UK Election 2015

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Dave wrote: And I thought in Australia you could do whatever you liked on the ballot paper, provided you showed up?
As far as I am aware you can, hence all the bogus ones they get. I have a friend in Melbourne, we chat quite frequently about UK & Aus politics and similar.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Chrill »

You people keep scaring me. They track you like that? When we vote, I show my ID and they mark my name on a list of everyone in the area so that they know I have voted. They know where I voted but my vote is not in any way identifiable. I can do whatever I like with the vote and it is untraceable.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Dave »

As I said, by law my vote is untraceable - unless there is reason to believe I have broken the law in casting my vote (this method of identification can't be used to track my movement for other crimes, unless I declare it as an alibi)

I don't think anyone has been convicted of proper electoral fraud for a while.

Even then it's quite convoluted - my ballot paper has a reference number which must be matched with the polling station which must then be matched with the reference document they use. Only then can they work out that yes, this guy was indeed responsible for drawing the big cartoon wang with crude pubic hair and an arc of semen spewing forth.

(Doing that, by the way, is NOT an offence)
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by siu238X »

orudge wrote:
Chrill wrote:Sinn Fein got 0.6% of the vote and 4 seats. The Green Party got 3.8% of the vote and 1 seat. It just doesn't seem fair.
What I could maybe see is a form of proportional representation where we have "regional" constituencies of some sort (e.g., North East Scotland comprising 6-8 seats or however many there are), with seats allocated proportionally based upon preference votes. This is basically what happens in the Scottish Parliament, though we also have a FPTP constituency element as well. The Conservatives aren't going to be keen to change voting system though, but our system really isn't fit for purpose any more.

I also agree with some kind of hybrid, but it gotta be right. I always think your suggestion could be applied to Hong Kong.


In Hong Kong, the Legislative Council (Legco) has been practicing Proportional Representation (PR) right after the Britons were gone. The Chinese Commies brought out PR because the Democrats, who are effectively anti-Beijing, won too many seats in the previous FPTP election, and the Commies wanna consolidate their (then) scattered support. They also kept the "Functional Constituencies" (which divide voters by profession), and made it less open such that some seats were only elected by 1 or 2 digits of votes, while geographical constituencies were often decided by orders of 100,000.

This made the newer generation (like me) extremely dissatisfied with the situation, and combined with the Commies' lack of administrative abilities (that is, compared against likes of Chris Patten), Hong Kong is in the brink of riot every few years.

If we could implement your plan right here, while businessmen (and Commie ball-lickers) wouldn't be represented by no one, they wouldn't have tight grip of power like they do now either.
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Re: UK Election 2015

Post by Redirect Left »

Interesting small image I found, this is what party came second nationwide.

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