Version 2.0 - Look to the Future

[Jacko]

I thinnk that there should be more cargos as when you get to a point theres not much you can do if youve done all that. (without FIRS ECS and all that)

And the waste idea is good. In Railroad Tycoon 3 you could recycle it into more useful cargo.

[Sabre_Justice]

Locomotion was a big failure. If a decent follow up to transpotr tycoon would be made, having an AAA budget, I'd expect the following:

• Full 3D opengl graphics, using decent models
• 3D positional sound
• A modern user interface (post 2005).
• A decent selection of signals
• Good mod support (the quality and quantity of openttd and ttdpatch, without XML, which is troublesome to read both for machines and humans)
• Station facilities.
• Buses, trams, freight trucks and ships which are actually useful.
• Roadstops and harbors which consist of multiple modable modules.
• A map array which actually has multiple, easy to edit layers.

BUt...

• The map should still support square tiles.
• It should still be possibly for a map to be very large.
• Lots of vehicles should be an option.
• Construction should go in aboout the same way as openttd.

That being said, a commercial project is unable to achieve that as most money will probably be poured in graphics and sound and the rest of the game will be neglected, as that is what sells games these days.

Transport empire looked like a good idea, but it appears to be dead now

Good points on all counts. And yeah, most big developers these days seem to be focused on style-over-substance, even if it's blatantly detracting from the rest of the game. (half the big Japanese companies are dying because they think gamers have no taste and just want pretty lights and colours, see Square-Enix)

Thing is, making a modern TT shouldn't be too much of a gamble, given it's a proven game style accessible to the casual and hardcore alike. Just improve the interface to make it user-friendly and use careful graphic design so things look nice but don't clutter the screen too much, which has the bonus of reducing system requirements. (of course, those are foreign concepts to most major game devs nowadays)

Hell, you mentioned Supreme Commander, and I can't help but think that Transport Tycoon wouldn't be too far of a stretch for the real time strategy market. Hell, I bet it's even possible to mod a RTS into a Transport Tycoon-lite! With all the crazy stuff Warcraft and Starcraft modders have come up with...

...and while I'm on this train of thought (pun not intended) I'm wondering if TT could learn from strategy games (or even its Tycoon stablemates) and perhaps have in-game research systems to unlock new vehicles and depots, via funding research, or even get discounted vehicles by providing resources to truck, train and plane factories? I'm not sure if that would be more or less realistic/fun to play than the current system, but it's an idea!

[Sabre_Justice]

I thinnk that there should be more cargos as when you get to a point theres not much you can do if youve done all that. (without FIRS ECS and all that)

And the waste idea is good. In Railroad Tycoon 3 you could recycle it into more useful cargo.

It depends on the players, though. The more cargo and industry types you add, the harder and more complex the game gets- any first time FIRS player will tell you how annoying it is to figure it out at first, and how the right industry chains never seem to spawn at a reasonable distance. I've only looked at ECS, haven't tried to actually play it yet, but I can only imagine it'd be even worse in that regard.

Of course, the more you play the less daunting it seems, and some players adore such complexity. But for casual and young players, the original industries are complex enough... perhaps if they wanted to add more industries, they could do it as 'difficulty levels' or something similar? The easiest setting being the default industries, and higher settings adding more and more complex chains and combinations.

Waste would be nice as a little side thing, I think- kinda like the inverse of Supplies in FIRS, there's relatively little of it compared to general production (though it scales up with increased production from the industry in question) and you can make a little extra profit trucking it to a junkyard, landfill or recycling depot. (the last one could even recycle the waste into more goods!)

Actually, that makes me wonder: What kind of ratio should there be for types of cargo vs types of industry, and the potential chains that can be made from them?

[adf88]

There were many suggestion to things that share the same problem:
- signals in tunnels and on bridges
- custom bridgeheads
- underground building
- stations over bridges
etc.

Common problem is that a bridge and a tunnel is just a wormhole. Or more generally - the tile array is just a single two-dimensional rectangle, tiles can't overlap. I think that a goal for the 2.0 could be to make the tile array 3-dimensional and implement all those features that were impossible/hard to implement because of current limit. In this way we could place at a bridge or in a tunnel whatever we can place on a regular tile.

I have a vision of a tile map that is a set of rectangles and an indirect tile indexing mechanism (something like memory mapping).

[Sabre_Justice]

Actually, come to think of it... I think there's a reason we haven't really seen a modern Transport Tycoon or anything even that similar... it seems to me that the 'simulator' genre as a whole has kind of niche'd itself to death in recent years. The only recent simulator games I know of are incredibly niche, either not-so-glorified digital trainsets with ridiculous amounts of DLC, staggeringly complex sims that require a thousand dollar rig just to play as intended, or cheap and terrible target sims churned out by some German company that are little more than shovelware.

What happened to the time when Sim and Tycoon games were easy to learn, hard to master, giving both casual and hardcore players endless fun to be had?

[bootis]

What happened was a younger generation that needs a game to be instant fun with instant action.

Well what I have in mind is to implement much more interactions between players:

-Being able to buy and sell goods and wares between eachother. It would create much more political depth where you can acquire monopole on certain wares. Or only focus on one ware and then sell it cheaper then the next guy. Or you could build huge transport lines where other players just sell small shipments to you and you transport all of it across the map. Like a "main line"

-Also, To make development of new vehicles individual by investing money in it. You could then later sell the designs to other players. Or develop specially efficient "Wood wagons" or "Grain wagons" or whatever-wagons so you really must specialize what kind of ware you want to focus on.

[Jacko]

for your first post thats a very good idea

[Punkenjoy]

Hi

My first post here but i'm a long time tycoon player. Thanks to all devs and artist to make this game playable.

My suggestion are

Economics:

- Economics booms and recessions, where in boom, goods transported give more income but construction cost more, industries and passagers trafics increased new instries created. in recession, goods transported for almost nothing but construction cheaper, industries produces less and low profitability based on transported goods closes.

The goal here is to give a little bit more depth to the gameplay where player will need to track the economics. It will also add more challenge to the game.

- Transportation income based on rarity,Example: if coal is abbudant, it should be cheaper to transport. Even if you move it all accros the map. I dont see the point to pay more for coal if you can get it closer for cheaper.

- price drop overtime for the same amount of cargo. Ex. you get 10$ for transporting 10 tons of coal, after x year, its now 5$ for 10 tons.

The goal is to give long lasting game more challenge.

UI

- Optionnal or default UI for beginner, Only one windows of eatch time could be open at the same time to prevent the multiplication of windows for beginner. when a windows is pinned, another windows of the same time can be opened. It could also remember the last position of the last opened windows of this type.

- 4 direction view can be interesting for map with complex heigh. Also a possibilty to have a 90 degree slope.(not usable for rail/road tough )

A easy way to ugrade vehicule like you select the vehicule, and have an upgrade button. Automatically the vehicule run to the next depot to be upgraded.

Gameplay

- More terrain type, mix of terrain type in the same map for larger map.
- Possibility to adjust in game time speed when creating a new game. ex: 1 RL min = 1 day or 1 month or 12 hours.
- The famous Scenario editors
- Advanced score based on the amounts of goods transported, the amount of cash spend on construction, the amount of cash earned. And the possibility to publish score online.

- Metropolitan area mods

A mod where the entire maps is a city with different key place. Industries and office tower require people and mail and other stuff. Aiport and seaport work like an industries giving differents types of goods and transportation. In this mode, its only train and bus and you need to transport people from their home to the work and also, needs to suply industries with ressources. In this mode, subway is really an interesting option as track will be a lot more complex to build. (but the map can have some area that are not used by the city to help a little bit the play.

The major problem for bus and stuff will be the pathfinding i think so player will need to select the exact path he will want his bus to take.


Community

- Vote for best scenario to get a community voted campain.
- Best GRF should be integrated in the core and could easily selected with description when creating a new game. Thoses GRF could be selected via public vote at each year by example



sorry if its not all well written, i do my best to translate my thinking in English. But that is my suggestion for 2.0. Hope its help.

[Eddi]

problem with those ideas is that you quickly run into extreme micromanagement

[Punkenjoy]

I think you talk about the economicals suggestion?

(or maybe the metropolis option that is more a dream than a real suggestion because even before we could play it, dev would have to program it and it not an easy task)


Theses concept comme from RRT3. If there is a game that its not about Extreme micromanagement, its this game.

Its more like look at demand and offer on the map, make a railroad, schedule a train and then profits. but i dont think extreme micromanagement is a problem. Most of us are hardcore players.

If the game only resume to build the longest coal line, its not really a "deep gameplay" imho. its ok for newbies but advanced players need more deep.

(i readed all the topic and the fact that the game is too easy after you made some profits is a major concern from player.)

[Sabre_Justice]

Its more like look at demand and offer on the map, make a railroad, schedule a train and then profits. but i dont think extreme micromanagement is a problem. Most of us are hardcore players.

See the post I made just up there about how making the game more complicated for the 'hardcore' players will lead a franchise into ruin? Believe it or not, we are not the majority of people who play this game.

What gets people into Transport Tycoon is that they can build two stations, a railway between them, a depot and a train, and then tell it where to load and unload, and finally just sit back and watch it go. Changing routes and building new tracks and vehicles to adjust for new resource levels and such is annoying enough, especially in a game that already has a somewhat clunky outdated UI that makes it difficult to determine exactly what you need, most of the game for normal people is guesswork. Besides, what you seem to describe is basically subsidies anyway.

Now, if you want to make the game more complex, you have to make it so the novice/easily bored/drunken player (IE, me) knows what to do or at least has some idea what's going on at all times. An advanced UI and in-game help system would work (because NO ONE reads manuals these days, and if they do it's for the fluff, gameplay bios, jokes and pretty pictures instead of learning the game), that gives players tips and suggestions on what to do next- highlighting a pair of industries that can be connected, perhaps suggesting the transport type and route (though this may be a little TOO helpful). Once the facilities/railways/route is built, it could even suggest the ideal vehicle and setup for it- hilly routes would need a high-traction vehicle, long straight routes benefit from something fast, short high-cargo routes could use high capacity trucks. It's the kind of thing I wish OTTD could have after how complex a game can get with a few vehicle GRFs.

[Punkenjoy]

i see your point. If you put dynamic demands and the price change to fast, sure it can lead to a nightmare. But there is easy fix to this.

I really like the tycoonatron feeling in RRT3. But its a lot simplier than what we are used to in tt. You dont need in that game to select what kind of cargo you want to transport. Most of the time, you check on the map for demand and offer, you build a railroad between these to cities and build a train with x cars moving any cargo availaible.

The train will automatically select cargo based on possible profits then move it. It could be a realy simplier mods for beginner.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/534361-railr ... faqs/49084

3.4 and 3.5 explain in deepth how its work.

In this game, as the time go, price will flattent because you move goods between them so if you want to stay profitable, you need to keep expand your railroad.

anyway, its just suggestion

[V453000 :)]

When saying all those things like 3D sound, 3D graphics, super shiny user interface and whatnot, continued with extremely complex details in the way how the economy works, and whatever else, you have to consider the following:

OpenTTD is a game which you just start playing and you do not like it because it rapes your PC with staggering supermodern graphics.
You do not like it because the way how industries work is extremely detailed and complicated.
You probably do not like it even because of the number of vehicle types.
You probably do not like it because of details and the over all coat of what the game is.

Talking from my point of view, OpenTTD is an unique game where you just start and build something. And in your next game, you build something again! But this something has the great thing that you try to build it better than last time. This leads not only to "beating a game" just like majority (you could almost say all) of the other games feature. You just beat a level, you succeed in eliminating enemy, you survive economically.
This point of facing yourself is to me extremely entertaining, not only because it makes everyone set their own "difficulty" but also because of another point:
OpenTTD has an extreme amount of things to be thought about, an extreme amount of things to try, a long way of thought processes and inventions to improve your networks with.
Due to these two elements, I find OpenTTD the best game I know. The best without any other even close to it.

As this is in my opinion the main strength of OpenTTD, furtherly supported by all the things such as an ocean of newGRFs bringing endless possibilities and a great amount of settings to take care of and again, make the game fit your needs, I think that for example the relatively low hardware requirements are just great. All the other games coming out today is just brainless crap which does nothing but force you to buy new hardware and give you 20 hours to kill. Incorporating all the 3D graphics and cosmetic changes to OpenTTD might do a lot more harm than gain in my opinion. And it would also show if you care about your community as "Ohh shiny 3d" or "look how good this network is".

All I want to say with all this is:
Be it realistic requrements, be it various economy enhancements, be it graphical changes, be it almost anything else, I think that we should not forget what is the golden point of OpenTTD and the reason what lures us to it again and again, and realize if the proposed features aren't just worth making a newGRF which allow really about anything reasonably useful while preserving those key points for OpenTTD.
I am very glad that OpenTTD looks like not only because it is nicely simple, but also because it shows that it is NOT one of the "modern games".
I am amazed at how it works because it keeps me playing it.
I am totally blown away by how many possibilities you have in constructing, thinking, and inventing new stuff.
These are the reasons I am playing this game for such a long time, why I write long theoretical articles about it, and why I love not only the game itself, but the thought processes it makes me do.

All in all, please consider this when thinking about enhancements and things that would improve OpenTTD in a way they are meant to improve, not change or try to compare OpenTTD to any other game around.

I am not trying to argue with anyone, I am just saying what I think and sharing a bit of my own experience with _the_(one and only) game.

[Expresso]

Well, the super shiny UI could be a super shiny Modifiable UI working on its own thread. Most CPUs are at least dual core these days, so why not use all that power.
The glorious 3D graphics could use less modern features to spare the GPU/APU or the features could be switched off (tesselation, dynamic lighting and specular shadows are an example of this).
The super detailed economic could be an actual mod (I believe newgrfs already do some of it).

However, I'm still puzzled why development on transport empire has stopped. It needs some dedicated devs to pick it up and start actual work on it.

[Sabre_Justice]

I was thinking more in the style of a RTS with the 3D graphics suggestion- they don't necessarily have to be super-detailed or showoffy, but designed so it's easy to tell what that object is and what it's meant to represent, and to add some more freedom with building stuff- I'd love to more easily make subways, elevated trains and that.

...in fact I might go make a subway anyway.

[Expresso]

- Station tiles which make the station accept certain cargoes.

What would make them functionally different to a house or industry and what would be gained?

Stations accepting cargon on their own sounds like a fundamentally flawed concept, as next would be a station tile which also generates cargo, so that I can build a whole network of stations which supply themselves. Build an industry or found houses so that your station accepts what you want it to accept - I see no single use which cannot be solved by that.

As it appears my mind was a bit clouded when I was typing that. Unfortunately I do not remember anymore what I was trying to say at that point.

[Emperor Jake]

I think he may have meant "certain station tiles only accept certain types of cargo", for example, a coal loading station wouldn't work for passengers, and a passenger station can only handle passengers on its own, and the station needs a Parcels Office tile to be able to handle mail, and a Goods Shed to accept goods.
Personally I don't see this as needing implementation, as some players want to play without any extras, and those who want eyecandy can add it when they please.

[maquinista]

Locomotion was a big failure. If a decent follow up to transpotr tycoon would be made, having an AAA budget, I'd expect the following:

• Full 3D opengl graphics, using decent models
• 3D positional sound
• A modern user interface (post 2005).
• A decent selection of signals
• Good mod support (the quality and quantity of openttd and ttdpatch, without XML, which is troublesome to read both for machines and humans)
• Station facilities.
• Buses, trams, freight trucks and ships which are actually useful.
• Roadstops and harbors which consist of multiple modable modules.
• A map array which actually has multiple, easy to edit layers.

BUt...

• The map should still support square tiles.
• It should still be possibly for a map to be very large.
• Lots of vehicles should be an option.
• Construction should go in aboout the same way as openttd.

That being said, a commercial project is unable to achieve that as most money will probably be poured in graphics and sound and the rest of the game will be neglected, as that is what sells games these days.

Transport empire looked like a good idea, but it appears to be dead now

Locomotion is a game that I like.
If You don't like it, don't play it. It would need a better vehicle support (or something like OpenTTD/TTDPatch newGRF files) and some GUI enhancements (for example, don't remove buildings even They are transparent) performance improvements, but I like their gameplay and their isometric graphics. It's a game different, not better or worse than other transportation games.

[Expresso]

I have played Locomotion in the past and, while I did like it initially, it appeared to me that construction of infrastructure was way too clumsy, path finding sucks (leading to all kinds of irritating problems) and the map was too small for my taste.

In openttd construction is natural and flowing, except for the UI from the stone age. In locomotion construction is clumsy with an UI from the stone age. You take your pick.

[maquinista]

I have played Locomotion in the past and, while I did like it initially, it appeared to me that construction of infrastructure was way too clumsy, path finding sucks (leading to all kinds of irritating problems) and the map was too small for my taste.

In openttd construction is natural and flowing, except for the UI from the stone age. In locomotion construction is clumsy with an UI from the stone age. You take your pick.

I like Locomotion AND OpenTTD.

Also, I like the GUI of OpenTTD, I don't need transparent windows or strange things on my screen, I think that most of "modern" GUI interfaces aren't more useful than Windows XP GUI.

You have listed some problems of Locomotion, but It have some details interesting: realistic curves, curves on bridges, trains with a proportional length... Of course, I don't want these features for OpenTTD, because It is a different game and It shouldn't become into a Locomotion*. But I think that a "free locomotion style game" could solve these problems of locomotion without changing the game style.

* A fork could be a idea if someone wants to start a free locomotion.

About OpenTTD: I think that features like curved bridges are not "very TTD", but other features like "Custom bridge heads" fits well in a TTD game.