Aircraft queueing & planespeed

Quark · Post by **Quark** » 14 Feb 2007 17:50

As I remember planespeed just multiple days in transit by it's speed multiplier, so profits is same as without patch (but one aircraft can transfer more cargo, so profits is larger by eliminating need of more aircrafts), but with goods transfer it don't multiple days in transit value.

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 15 Feb 2007 15:16

Quark wrote:As I remember planespeed just multiple days in transit by it's speed multiplier, so profits is same as without patch (but one aircraft can transfer more cargo, so profits is larger by eliminating need of more aircrafts), but with goods transfer it don't multiple days in transit value.

As you remember it from TTDP, or as you remember the CobraA1's one for OTTD?

My patch never ever multiplies days in transport. If TTDP does it, I would do it, but otherwise I consider it a really very ugly solution. Aircraft costs, running costs and maybe the payment rates is where the balancing should be done.

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 17 Feb 2007 15:43

Hello,

I have updated the patches again and added one patch. The new patch adjusts aircraft breakdowns so, that for higher planespeed setting their breakdown probability is proporitionally higher and their reliability decreases faster. However for some reason the aircraft can still fly slightly further before breaking down with planespeed 4 than planespeed 1. Still it should make flying across whole large map impractical.

The patches should be applied in order:

speed-callback.patch
plane-speed.patch
plane-reliability.patch
taxiing-speed.patch

The additional plane-speed-rollup.patch patch is combination of all four patches, generated with subversion based on revision 8763, so you should be able to apply it with Tortoise SVN.

GRRRR! This #$%&@ forum won't allow me to post more than 3 attachments in one comment, so I'll tar them up.

Update: Regenerated against trunk@8883.

CMircea · Post by **CMircea** » 17 Feb 2007 18:00

I'll apply this right away, thanks for the patch, will makes aircraft more useful.

Post by **PikkaBird** » 18 Feb 2007 02:55

I'm not sure the patch to increase the reliability decay as a balancing thing is a good idea, not least because 99% of multiplayer OTTD games have breakdowns turned off anyway. It's also inflexible to have such things hard-coded - reliability decay can just as easily be adjusted with grf.

A much better idea, I think, would be to make the map size accessable to grf files. Then grf authors can adjust running costs (and/or reliability decay!) for aircraft based on how large the map is.

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 18 Feb 2007 08:02

PikkaBird wrote:I'm not sure the patch to increase the reliability decay as a balancing thing is a good idea, not least because 99% of multiplayer OTTD games have breakdowns turned off anyway. It's also inflexible to have such things hard-coded - reliability decay can just as easily be adjusted with grf.

Well, it can still be adjusted with grf. Just the returned value will be multiplied by planespeed ingame, so it does not have to be adjusted (eg. the default set won't adjust it).

Of course it does not change things for games where breakdowns are turned off, but IMHO it still makes sense to do it.

PikkaBird wrote:A much better idea, I think, would be to make the map size accessable to grf files. Then grf authors can adjust running costs (and/or reliability decay!) for aircraft based on how large the map is.

That would be a good idea. Independently of how the reliability is handled. It shouldn't even be hard to code, so the main issue is getting a variable number and flag that TTDP will not use for something else in future, as I don't think there are any OTTD specific parameters in newgrf sped yet.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 18 Feb 2007 18:47

bulb wrote:
PikkaBird wrote:I'm not sure the patch to increase the reliability decay as a balancing thing is a good idea, not least because 99% of multiplayer OTTD games have breakdowns turned off anyway. It's also inflexible to have such things hard-coded - reliability decay can just as easily be adjusted with grf.
Well, it can still be adjusted with grf. Just the returned value will be multiplied by planespeed ingame

NOOOOOOOOoooooooo............

Trying to support eight different planespeed settings is bad enough. Don't make Patch's four different than the first four of Open's.

bulb wrote:It shouldn't even be hard to code, so the main issue is getting a variable number and flag that TTDP will not use for something else in future,

Talk to patchman, and then document it. Or, possibly, here, instead.

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 18 Feb 2007 21:37

DaleStan wrote:
bulb wrote: Well, it can still be adjusted with grf. Just the returned value will be multiplied by planespeed ingame
NOOOOOOOOoooooooo............

Trying to support eight different planespeed settings is bad enough. Don't make Patch's four different than the first four of Open's.

Ok, how does TTDP handle reliability of faster aircraft? Does it simply have them break down after roughly the same time (and larger distance), or does it adjust the reliability in some way?

Given that newgrf can set reliability decay, there is still the question what time until breakdown the reliability means. For faster aircraft, this should again be shortened. Is there a parameter for this in newgrf as well?

DaleStan wrote:
bulb wrote:It shouldn't even be hard to code, so the main issue is getting a variable number and flag that TTDP will not use for something else in future,
Talk to patchman, and then document it. Or, possibly, here, instead.

Ok. I will try that (it also requires that some OTTD developer will actually merge the change in the end).

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 19 Feb 2007 02:48

bulb wrote:
DaleStan wrote:Trying to support eight different planespeed settings is bad enough. Don't make Patch's four different than the first four of Open's.
Ok, how does TTDP handle reliability of faster aircraft? Does it simply have them break down after roughly the same time (and larger distance), or does it adjust the reliability in some way?

Unless Patchman has done some undocumented magic (which is not in Patchman's nature) the reliability and reliability decay speed of planes is not effected by planespeed.

bulb wrote:Given that newgrf can set reliability decay, there is still the question what time until breakdown the reliability means. For faster aircraft, this should again be shortened. Is there a parameter for this in newgrf as well?

What is the antecedent of "this"?
Reliability decay speed is the only thing a GRF can control. Reliability is randomly generated, but affected by whether or not the vehicle is used during its exclusive year, and time-until-breakdown is completely invisible to GRF files. (The counter proper is not, but the limit is.)

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 20 Feb 2007 17:39

DaleStan wrote:
bulb wrote:Given that newgrf can set reliability decay, there is still the question what time until breakdown the reliability means. For faster aircraft, this should again be shortened. Is there a parameter for this in newgrf as well?
What is the antecedent of "this"?
Reliability decay speed is the only thing a GRF can control. Reliability is randomly generated, but affected by whether or not the vehicle is used during its exclusive year, and time-until-breakdown is completely invisible to GRF files. (The counter proper is not, but the limit is.)

The idea was to make aircraft break down after flying about the same distance under all planespeed settings. And the counter goes up with time, so it has to go up faster when the aircraft are faster to maintain the same distance until breakdown.

If you think it's bad idea, that's why I did it as a patch stack -- reverting it is as simple as taking out that one patch.

DaleStan · Post by **DaleStan** » 20 Feb 2007 21:47

I suppose that's a policy decision, not a spec decision, but, as far as I know, reliability has always decayed as a function of time, not of distance traveled.

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 24 Feb 2007 19:47

DaleStan wrote:I suppose that's a policy decision, not a spec decision, but, as far as I know, reliability has always decayed as a function of time, not of distance traveled.

My patch does not change that. It just shortens the time until breakdown to compensate for the fact that aircrafts can fly further in the same time.

I am not sure whether it's the right thing to do. I just wanted to make very long routes a little less feasible.

However, since I changed the break-down speed to 5/8 max (as it is in TTDP according to PikkaBird), Concorde will still fly hell fast even when broken down, so breakdowns won't affect aircrafts all that much.

Besides I can imagine many people play with breakdowns turned off, as they are more of a nuisance than interesting game feature.

athanasios · Post by **athanasios** » 24 Feb 2007 23:46

I hate breakdowns of airplanes.
They'd better "break down" when they 've landed, and then need servicing for a period of time. And rarely crush while on flight (like patch of when they run out of fuel).

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 01 Mar 2007 18:25

athanasios wrote:I hate breakdowns of airplanes.
They'd better "break down" when they 've landed, and then need servicing for a period of time. And rarely crush while on flight (like patch of when they run out of fuel).

Well, aircraft break in the air more often than they do on the ground. What could be interesting is if broken down aircraft could land on the closest airport (ie. even if it's not in their route plan) and require to land within some distance (otherwise they'd crash). The frequency of the breakdowns would have to be reduced if they were really required to land quickly (the possibility to have them do that would be nice in any case).

george11 · Post by **george11** » 01 Mar 2007 19:02

Hello. Can someone please compile this mod with the final version of miniIN Ottd? I have tried to apply it by myself, but i failed miserably. I dont really care if this mod will unbalance my games or break the economy, i just want a bit faster planes for the awesome big maps in OTTD. I have restrained from playing ottd since i found out about this patch, and i have been waiting for some final versions of ottd and miniIN. both have come true, so now i just nned this patch applied and i can play ttd once more

.
Thank you.
If what i ask of you is illegal or you dont want/care, thanks anyway for such an amazing OTTD.

PS: i saw somewhere pictures of long road vehicles, wich actualy turned in axels in bends, can anyone point me to grf?

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 02 Mar 2007 21:10

george11 wrote:Hello. Can someone please compile this mod with the final version of miniIN Ottd? I have tried to apply it by myself, but i failed miserably.

The old CobraA1's version almost applies against latest MiniIN with few conflicts that should be easy to resolve. As MiniIN is no longer developed and trunk has changed rather significantly, I will not port the patch to MiniIN -- it is not worth the effort.
Please consider playing trunk (the usable things from MiniIN should be in trunk now anyway).

george11 wrote: PS: i saw somewhere pictures of long road vehicles, wich actualy turned in axels in bends, can anyone point me to grf?

Have you tried looking on the wiki? ("LV" stands for "Long Vehicles").

athanasios · Post by **athanasios** » 03 Mar 2007 05:38

I suppose he refers to Sergej_S screenshots. Since he is new here: Find his web page and get them from there if they are available for download. And they are for the 32bpp (=true color) version of OpenTTD. So you will need that also (Quark is working on that).

Post by **Rubidium** » 03 Mar 2007 08:50

Quark is not working on the 32bpp version of OpenTTD. The person who has done (almost) everything is egladil, so thank him.

george11 · Post by **george11** » 03 Mar 2007 10:05

thank you for answers. Im not entirely new to this forum, i have been browsing it and checking for a past year or so.
1: i have no idea what trunk is, i saw something like that in MiniIN topic, but i have no idea what it means... So you are basicly saying that if i want to play OTTD + MiniIN + aircraft speed (doesnt have to be this patch, anything that will make planes go faster is OK) i cant? I cant code or work with C++, so i cant compile or code it myself.
2: yes the road trucks i had in mind are truly depicted on one of the 32 bbp threads by sergej. I was just wondering if there is normal (ie not 32 bbp) version out there, if not im still happy to play with just LV (by the way thx for the link)
because if i apply 32 bbp patch on my ottd, it replaces the miniIn and im affraid MiniIn has a priority over nice graphics (mainly path based signaling and ton of other stuff wich i really missed in Ottd).
Before you ask me how can i miss something of wich i dont know, i have been playing the patched ttd about a year ago, but since i found out about
Ottd i completely reverted, mainly beacause of gigantic maps, wich are better than any ammount of enhancments in patch ttd.

bulb · Post by **bulb** » 03 Mar 2007 20:28

george11 wrote: 1: i have no idea what trunk is, i saw something like that in MiniIN topic, but i have no idea what it means... So you are basicly saying that if i want to play OTTD + MiniIN + aircraft speed (doesnt have to be this patch, anything that will make planes go faster is OK) i cant? I cant code or work with C++, so i cant compile or code it myself.

"trunk" is the development version of OpenTTD (so called because that's the customary name for main branch in subversion).

I was told to develop against trunk because MiniIN is no longer maintained. And since final build of MiniIN is based on 0.5.0 and trunk has changed significantly since then (completely switched from C to C++ and layout was changed a bit), the patch won't apply cleanly to MiniIN.

That said, it would be actually easy to port the patch to MiniIN with a little C skill (there is in fact no ++ stuff in there).

Or you can dig up the CobraA1's patch for MiniIN somewhere about middle of this thread. Just be aware that realistic planespeed is 4, not 8 and be aware that the aircraft queueing can actually decrease airport throughput significantly (which is why I didn't integrate it into my refactored patch in the end).

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