High Speed Two

[EXTspotter]

I completely agree with you all, but without the High Speed Lines and investment, it will not succeed, that and also it will not help smaller cities which can support aircraft, but will not be on or anywhere near the HSLs.

[Ameecher]

What won't succeed?

I thought for a horrific moment that you were saying a high speed line won't succeed without a high speed line which, well...

I'm assuming I'm wrong.

[audigex]

I think he means that you can't reduce the number of domestic flights without the high speed lines.

The feeder flights idea is pretty compelling though. If I wanted to fly to somewhere a little obscure, it may be difficult to get a flight out of Glasgow/Newcastle/Liverpool/Manchester. This sort of low-demand flight would likely be from one of the main London airports (Stanstead, Gatwick, Heathrow etc). I'd then have a choice of either

Drive to the airport near London, get the flight. (1 car)
Trains to airport near London, get the flight (3 trains minimum, probably the tube too)
Train/car to Manchester, domestic flight airport near London, get the flight (1 train/car, 2 planes)

The car is obviously convenient but a fairly long way (6-7 hour drive) which I may not want both ways before/after a long flight.

Which leaves the public transport options:

The trains to London would almost certainly be a lot of effort. I'd need to change at Manchester and at least one other place onto the service to the airport, More than likely via London and having to get the tube to swap lines. That's at least 2 changes plus the airport, possibly 3 or 4 changes. That's a lot if I had enough luggage for 2 weeks in Africa...

Finally I could get the train (or car) to Manchester airport directly, onto one plane to London and then swap to the long-haul flight. That's a train I'd be getting anyway, but the plane would cut out at least one change on the way to the south, and more likely 2/3 changes.

It's not always about distance or time, for me it would be about hauling my luggage onto and off trains, through airports and finding seats. As opposed to having a guaranteed seat on a plane (no old blokes in my reserved seat who I don't have the heart to move) and much less handling of my luggage.

[Ameecher]

Indeed I too can understand the success of feeder flights but if you had a HS line that ran from Manchester to Heathrow you'd still catch that same train to Manchester but would transfer to a High Speed train and get off in the terminal at Heathrow with your luggage with your rather than having to wait for it to come through reclaim and the time will probably be quicker than the flight. I can see no reason, provided that HS is implemented in a sensible thought out way that domestic flights between the major urban centres of the UK can't be abandoned.

[orudge]

Indeed I too can understand the success of feeder flights but if you had a HS line that ran from Manchester to Heathrow you'd still catch that same train to Manchester but would transfer to a High Speed train and get off in the terminal at Heathrow with your luggage with your rather than having to wait for it to come through reclaim

Except you wouldn't have to wait for your luggage at Heathrow if you had a connecting flight, it'd go straight onto your final destination. Plus the smaller domestic airports are often much quicker to check in for, get through security, etc, compared to somewhere like Heathrow with so many passengers using it. So you could turn up to your domestic airport an hour before your flight, get through security and so on in 10-15 minutes, relax with a drink until your flight is ready to board. Then at Heathrow you just have to go to your connecting gate, and that's you set. Generally no need to wait in huge security queues at Heathrow.

[EXTspotter]

I know this is like flogging a dead horse and you're all probably sick of hearing it, but the most compelling evidence I have for myself is my own experiences. During my life I have gone on 3 long haul charter flights out of Manchester airport. For the first one (about 1999ish) we took the train to Stockport, where we stayed overnight and then a taxi to the airport, it cost by far the most and caused the most hassle as my parents had a 13 year old and an 8 year old stuck on a packed 47 + MK2, where we couldn't even be together, even though they booked seats, etc, etc, ad nauseum (spelling mistake?). The second time (2007), we flew from Exeter to Manchester on the same morning as the flight, this was the middle expense option, but it was the least stressful, which for my Dad who stresses his face off and doesn't have the best heart, is a big big bonus. The last time, last year, we drove to Manchester airport, the traffic was a horrible horrible nightmare, it took 9 hours and we were lucky to get on the flight as when I was close to puking in front of the checkin desk we had 2 minutes before it closed and my dad was still parking the car.

Each form has its good and bad points, but in my view having to traipse from T3 to T2 at Manchester, our bags were on the carousel before we arrived and our group accounted for over half the load of the flybe Dash 8 (5 of us with 9 passengers total out of a possible 78 (14% load factor = OUCH!)) was by far the best option. As for HSR, what is the likelyhood I can get from Newton Abbot to Manchester airport as cheaply and with as little stress as flying is between none and what the feck are you smoking. Even taking into account large cities on possible HSR lines, the flying public is all over the country, with very very large numbers in rural areas, away from these routes (the far southwest being one of these).

[Kevo00]

Hmm, surely most regional airports fail to offer flights to London. They might be good at inter-regionals, but a lot lack flights to London.

I don't really understand why you took a charter flight from Manc when you live in Newton Abbot, anyway?!?

[EXTspotter]

As for flights to London, within a radius of X hours to London by train, that is generally true, but further than that they almost all do. As for why Manchester, in journey times, it is pretty much the same time to get to both, plus Manchester is a far nicer airport than Gatwick, with better parking, facilities, it is less dungeony and it is much easier for us to get to by public transport, e.g. Train to Man Pic and then then train to Airport, whereas to get to Gatwick involves more than 1 change. Plus to get to these places (Dominican Republic, Cuba, Maldives) on Charter, the only options are usually Gatwick or Manchester.

[John]

Except you wouldn't have to wait for your luggage at Heathrow if you had a connecting flight, it'd go straight onto your final destination.

Unless they implement it like DB and Lufthansa have - you can check in at major stations, and the train acts like a plane in that your luggage all gets taken care of. That does however still leave the joys of security....

[orudge]

Unless they implement it like DB and Lufthansa have - you can check in at major stations, and the train acts like a plane in that your luggage all gets taken care of. That does however still leave the joys of security....

See, that would be quite handy I reckon. It was something I was going to suggest in one of my previous posts, before thinking "well, I'm sure they wouldn't really bother to implement anything like that" - but it seems that the Germans have.

[noofnoof]

"build it and they will come."

[Wasila]

I haven't seen any discussion about it - but I was wondering what you people thought about the Lib Dems misgivings and the Conservative's plans to 'review' it. I was also wondering what you thought about a hi-speed network in the UK and the Conservative's plans for a Heathrow Hub (the best thing about having a £170 billion annual deficit is that a one-off £20 billion can go almost unnoticed ).

Just wondering what you guys thought.

[Kevo00]

There's been tonnes of discussion on these topics. Both are a good idea but Crossrail is more likely to happen than HS2, which has a dubious business case and would need a lot of political will to shove through. I reckon we're more likely to see a Locomotion 2 than an HS2

[Wasila]

I should hope that Crossrail happens - especially since preparatory work is already underway. A Heathrow Hub would be nice - but the problem is that even though such a hub would mean those on the continent could use the airport easily, there is no more capacity for more flights.

[SHADOW-XIII]

I think Crossrail is great idea and it expand easy-to-access central London even further - if Cross rail won't stuck in traffic
anyway I do not think Heathrow Hub is something to bother, mind that it's already accessible via Picadilly Line and I think mentioned Heathrow Tube will be accessed same way Heathrow Connect/Express, won't be?

[Wasila]

I believe that it would be beneficial to have Heathrow connected directly to the Continent via hi-speed rail (>100 mph) as opposed to the clunky old Tube (30 mph). Having it further connected to places such as Manchester would be even more beneficial.

Of course, if this was an TT game then it would already have been built

[doktorhonig]

High speed rail connections for that airport could actually free up capacities, because fewer local flights are needed, like people from surrounding cities flying to sydney etc.

Is there a geographically correct map or a google earth thingy for that line?

[Wasila]

I don't think there is an exact route. Just draw a line west from central London .

What actual % of flights from Heathrow are domestic? And what % are short-haul? (like to Paris.)

[EXTspotter]

Relatively few. I'd guess maybe 5 - 10% domestic + Paris + Brussels. But you have to bear in mind that quite a few of these wouldn't be replaced by HS2 (e.g. Belfast).

Another thing to consider is the time of day these flights leave, of course there are some in the morning peak, however it may only open up for instance 5 morning slot pairs at times suitable for markets in the western hemisphere, e.g. North and South America.

[doktorhonig]

Now I created an overlay for Google Earth. It's not quite accurate, because if I align Heathrow and Shenfield, some of the city stations are not where they're meant to be.

Please check it out and correct it!

btw. it would be great, if kmz files were allowed to upload here.