Japan Set Development

[Edd.Dragon]

So, original grass for me is too colourful. And japan grass is more restrained and suitable for realistic settings with reallife vehicles, etc

[PaulC]

Hmm, I don't really think that "realism" or 8-bit graphics are really the issue here. But moving on (for the moment)...

Town names: the current grf isn't bad, but it's rather small and a bit lacking in variety. There's already another grf out there created by Sylf which uses real place names in romaji, kanji and katakana, and he says we're welcome to use it. Are people happy moving in this direction? Are there any changes we would want to make (such as leaving out well known cities like Tokyo, Osaka, Hiroshima etc.)?

For those who aren't familiar with it, Sylf's grf is available on bananas.

[dandan]

Paul, great to see that you are working on the grass. The new grass looks pretty good, but I agree with oberhümer that the contrast is too stark. I am not sure, but I believe this might be only because of the grid lines. Compared to the current Japanese grass, the grid is much darker and more visible. As we discussed, and as Nekomaster also pointed out, a version without grid would be good to have, but that's a different story.

[dandan]

@SniperDJ and Aphid: Thanks for the bug reports. The capacity problem with the tank car has been fixed already, as much of the freight wagon code has been rewritten. Likewise, most other stats have been checked and corrected. The Odakyu, however, got moved out of the main set into an experimental addon-set with some other private stuff and the wrong numbers are still there. Will change that.

Here is a progress report:
1. Trains are almost done, except some early steamers and a few freight cars.
2. Landscape is being worked on, but when the new grass is done, it can be completed quite rapidly. FWIW, I have uploaded the darker rice fields, as no one seemed to have any opinion on them one way or the other.
3. Tracks need another round of improvements. That's what I'm currently working on.
4. Stations are still very much work in progress.
5. I am working on a readme and guide (much more work than it sounds).

What does that mean for the release date? I can't say. We would like to release this rather sooner than later. Probably, when 1-3 are done, we will make a release and complete the stations and guide later. As I have said before, I want to get away from the "big release" scheme, where the new version always has to be postponed again and again and again, and have smaller, more frequent updates in the future.

As some of you are aware, I have uploaded all the Japan Set stuff to the OpenTTD devzone half a year or so ago.
http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/jpset
After all, this is under the GPL and has never belonged to me personally. You can take a look at the current state of development if you know how to check out files from the devzone with mercurial and how to build grfs. Needless to say, most of the files are currently in some kind of intermediate stage and are not necessarily in good shape to actually play a game with. You can also post bugreports on the devzone, but please do this only if you are referring to the current development state, not to the released versions.

[PaulC]

Paul, great to see that you are working on the grass. The new grass looks pretty good, but I agree with oberhümer that the contrast is too stark. I am not sure, but I believe this might be only because of the grid lines. Compared to the current Japanese grass, the grid is much darker and more visible.

Perhaps; the gridlines in the current grass are very inconsistant and barely visible on some tiles so that's something I was trying to fix, but perhaps I've taken it a little far. I can try softening them a bit.

[Toni Babelony]

The attachment Logo01.png is no longer available

Hello all,

First and foremost of all, I'd like you to meet the first public release of TIAS, TIAS 1.6-alpha! This NewGRF is part of the JapanSet and will only work in combination with the Japan Set Trains and Tracks loaded before TIAS.

In the attachment of this post you'll find a Read Me file (which could be handy if you're not familiar with private railways in Japan) and the release of TIAS 1.6-alpha!

So, please enjoy!

Licensed under GNL v2 as of TIAS 1.3-alpha.


*WARNING!*

Please be sure to assign at least three parameters in the Japan Set Trains settings! Otherwise running costs will be ridiculous! Settings may be [0 0 0] or otherwise. Doesn't really matter what, as long as there are at least three parameters set!

======

TIAS Updatelog

1.6-alpha
/ Update: adjusted pricing once again. This time, simplified the system. No more crazy bugs should appear here I think.
/ Add: cargo_ageing. Express and low-speed trains have more durable cargo as opposed to regular commuter stock.

1.5-alpha
/ Update: added more sound effects.
/ Update: replaced Horn03 and all starting sounds with less annoying ones.
/ Update: removed a few graphical bugs.
/ Update: adjusted running costs to more feasible ones.

1.3-alpha
/ Add: Licensed under GNL v2

1.0-alpha
/ First public release!
/ Update: added TTD check.
/ Update: added JapanSet3: Trains & Tracks dependencies error message.
/ Update: added JapanSet3: Trains parameter notice.

0.7
/ Update: renamed from 0.1.x to 0.x
/ Update: added special purchase sprites with logo (company mark from uniform) to the set.
/ Added: KQ600, KQ700, KQ300, KQ400, KQ500 2/4-doors, KQ800, KQ2100, KQ1, KQ26, KQ29, KQ51, KQDE1, KQ2000 2/3-doors and KQ1000-1 6-car type (set completed!)
/ Fix: Made 3 and 6 car (real) KQ trains to 4 and 8 cars long (code) for overall compatibility.
/ Fix: Group trains' ID positions for 1st parameter 3rd setting usability.
/ Fix: Adjusted values in language file, plus pricing fixes.

0.1.6
/ Update: KQ1000_1: added original and added aircon2 version at random.
/ Fix: KEIKYU GROUP blocks further defined.

0.1.5
/ Fix: KS700/2200 Type 4-car: changed introduction date and added random_switch for stainless steel cars.
/ Update: KS3150 Type 4-car: added the option to add 3100 Type 2-car units to recreate the 3190 Type KAIUN units.
/ Fix: KS33 Type: lowered capacity.
/ Fix: better retire_early dates for early KS types.
/ Update: added 3rd STR_PARAM_COMPANY_BOTH setting for multiplayer.

0.1.4
/ Update: further defined KEIKYU GROUP blocks for future use.

0.1.3
/ Fix: cleared bug in KQ1000_2_8 random_switch consists.

0.1.2
/ Fix: better retire_early dates for longer life of trains.

0.1.1
/ Update: pricing update (more competitive with Japan Set).

0.1.0
/ First testing release! =)

[hargs]

Very nice, thought the prices are coming out in the billions for me, might be because i'm on the old japan set.

purchasewindow.png (23.47 KiB) Viewed 1908 times

[dandan]

Very nice, thought the prices are coming out in the billions for me, might be because i'm on the old japan set.

Unlikely. Could you try loading only the Japanese Train Set and TIAS? And what version of OpenTTD are you using?

[arikover]

I just tried it too, and got the same problem (OTTD 120 RC1, MacOS 10.4). Very high purchase cost, normal running costs.

This seems to be due to the Japan Set itself : I tested the Japan Set 2.1a with TIAS set. These were the only GRFs I used. Then I changed parameters of the Japan Set :

I tried no parameters and got the bug.
I tried with parameters 0 0 0 30 and got the 'reverse' bug (normal purchase cost, enormous running costs)
I tried with parameters 0 0 0 and it worked OK.
I tried with parameters 0 0 and I got the same bug as in the beginning.


I hope this will help to fix this bug.

[hargs]

I'm on 1.2.0 RC-1 and i was using only the japan train set and TIAS.
Setting the cost parameter also worked for me, so long as it was set to something (ie 0-4 as in the readme) it comes out with an appropriate price relative to the japan set trains.

[NekoMaster]

If there is another release for the Japan Station Set, will there be things like parking lots or intergration with the city and transit?

As far as I know IRL most japanese stations dont have the big sprawling parking lots that North American stations have. Even for commuter stations here in Southern Ontario (and possibly else where), there's huge parking lots and a large terminal for bus's and coach's to stop at.

[supermop]

Maybe it's a stupid observation - but I have to say, in all of the times I have been to Japan, I've never really seen land like the Japan Set. That is to say, large rolling expanses of green, Kentucky-ish looking grass. Maybe I have primarily been in the wrong parts of the country, and just haven't seen much grassland, but typically the undeveloped land I have seen is either 1) covered in hardwood trees or bamboo thickets with essentially no ground cover at surface apart from mosses, 2) essentially bare dirt or loose rocks with very little vegetation, or 3) taller grasses, typically in floodplains next to rivers in and near smaller cities, which like tall grass anywhere, is very green part of the year and brownish for the rest.

I don't really associate pastel colors with Japanese vegetation in my experience (I tend to think of verdant forests, urban hardscape, and farmland). I do acknowledge that pastel colors were more common in Japanese interior and graphic design in the 80s and 90s, so maybe the intent is to capture that look?

Personally my vote would be for a little more green and depth to the grass, or a browner ground (and play with lots of trees).

Best,

[dandan]

I don't really associate pastel colors with Japanese vegetation in my experience (I tend to think of verdant forests, urban hardscape, and farmland). I do acknowledge that pastel colors were more common in Japanese interior and graphic design in the 80s and 90s, so maybe the intent is to capture that look?

That probably is the intent, or was when the Japanese grass was first done several years ago (before my time). At any rate, it's really more an artistic question than one of realism IMO. No country in the world is green the way the original grass is, not even the British Isles. Or take Germany, we don't have much empty grassland either, it's mostly forest or farmland. And there is generally far too little farmland in TTD.

So the grass is more some kind of background colour. And I generally like the pastel green of the Japan Set. For people who don't, there is always the original grass or the arctic grass, of course. At this point, only the Japanese roads are really tied up with the Landscape, and that, too, will change some day when road types are done.

@Nekomaster: Yes, we will probably have some parking lots, but also an underground garage entry (at least I have sprites floating around for both). But that kind of stuff is not what makes development take so long...

[stevenh]

I'd like you to meet the first public release of TIAS, TIAS 1.0-alpha!

Mr Babelony, permission requested to load this GRF into Bananas and then my Japan Server?
Bananas will happily cope with version updates as you spit them out

[Toni Babelony]

@TIAS & Japan Set involved cost issue. I've accidentally put these against the latest development-release of the Japan Set, instead of the latest public release... So, I've now built the new TIAS1.1-alpha to work with Japan Set Trains 2.1 You can find it back in the same post as the one you downloaded TIAS1.0-alpha from before. Sorry for that!

@stevenh: please do so! Be sure to load the TIAS 1.1-alpha instead of the 1.0-alpha!

@Grass tiles: A few days ago I also had thoughts on this. I think we could introduce some kind of new parameter in the landscape, where you can choose which form of grass tile to play with:
1. Original (or improved) Japan grass;
2. A new form of landscape tile;
3. Original TTD grass.

Now, setting 2 could well be in the same colour range as the Japan Set's grass tiles, but would look much more overgrown. This shouldn't affect the game in sense of costs, but would only function as a visual enhancer. Think about dense bushes and bamboo (as supermop pointed out), since that is what Japan generally consists of when land is unused (and if there are no trees growing there). However, I'm kind of weary that this could make a very busy landscape, so there should be some variety of tiles through random_switch if possible... Just a thought.
But yes, as dandan said before: we can always change this whenever road_types are done. For now I think we should stick to what we have and try to improve that as much as we can.

[planetmaker]

Modifying/reusing/adjusting this NewGRF or any of its parts is prohibited under GPL v. 3.

This quote from the TIAS readme is a bad joke, is it?

You might also want to decide on whether you use GPL v2, GPL v2+ or GPL v3. The license as bananas knows it is GPL v3 while the NewGRF tells it is GPL v2 (the latter or GPL v2+ would make it compatible with the rest of the JapanSet).

[Toni Babelony]

Modifying/reusing/adjusting this NewGRF or any of its parts is prohibited under GPL v. 3.

This quote from the TIAS readme is a bad joke, is it?

You should also decide on whether you use GPL v2, GPL v2+ or GPL v3. The license as bananas knows it is GPL v3 while the NewGRF tells it is GPL v2 (the latter or GPL v2+ would make it compatible with the rest of the JapanSet).

Uhm well, it was mainly intended to scare people off if they wanted to modify the NewGRF and distribute it. I'll change it then Thanks for noticing! I have now changed it to GPL v2+. I'll also have the license version on bananas change as soon as possible!

Thanks for noticing; I'm a total n00b when it comes to licensing details.

EDIT: about scaring people off not to modify it: I realised just now, it's pretty silly to do so, since OpenTTD and the JapanSet are public projects. *that means counting on human trust *

[paulicus25]

Hey. Downloaded the TIAS 1.1 alpha, and ran with japan set 2.1a. Also had a big problem with costs. Seems the set is not interacting with japan set's parameters properly. In order to get a matching capacity, running cost and purchase cost for all TIAS vehicles and japan set, you seem to have to set all costs to the lowest setting. Otherwise the TIAS set does not scale at the same rate as the japan set resulting in say an 8 car commuter train costing millions and millions to buy and run whereas a commuter train from the japan set costs say 18k to buy and 2k to run.

It seems that the attempt to interlock with Japan Set's parameters was perhaps a mistake, as it seems to be causing all hell to break loose. Perhaps simply adding your own, seperately configurable parameter to the TIAS set would be a better way to go. This way, you could configure TIAS manually to match the japan set without further problems.

Annother suggestion is aboutt he carrying capacity of the trains. Carrying capacity for me was completely insane. Tha afforementioned 8 car passenger trains carried closing on like 1200 passengers. comparing to the cargo capacity of the japan set this needs to be devided by at least 3 or 4. Waaaaaay too high.

If only every set had an individially configurable parameter for costs and capacities. Then every set released would potentially be compatible in terms of balance. (wishful thinking)

Anyways other than that, the graphics are superb and the running sounds are the icing on the cake. Nicely done.

[FooBar]

It seems that the attempt to interlock with Japan Set's parameters was perhaps a mistake

Not at all. This will make configuring both sets way easier. That it doesn't work right now is not something that can't be fixed with a bit of fixing.

As for costs in general: if every set would balance against the default vehicles, then all sets are automatically (cost-)compatible without having to provide any parameter setting. Increasing or decreasing of costs can then be done via one single base cost grf, for all vehicle sets at once. Now that is wishful thinking

That however doesn't solve cross-set capacity issues, which still would need a parameter. However, such a parameter with for example three settings (ttd balanced, real life seated only, real life seated + standing) is much more easier to configure than trying to balance four sets of cost parameters with arbitrary default values.

But enough side-tracking
The moral of my story is that it would be best to keep the interlocking of cost settings with the Japan Set. I'm certain that can be done properly. The only tricky situation is when the Japan Set changes it's costs for whatever reason.

[paulicus25]

Seems my point was completely missed.

In terms of the TIAS set, fair enough. I forgot to take into account potential updates to the japan set etc etc.

However, my point about the capacity of TIAS is a TIAS only related point. Ie. Needs changing or ability to be changed.

My point about the "if only every set had a parameter to change it's base cost multiplier" was simply me saying that if each and every set that had ever been released had an in-built costs/capacity modifier (ie like the japan set) then there would be no problem as each set could simply be configured manually. Basically i was praising said japan set and it's ingenuity (and stating, yes, that this concept is completely wishful thinking).

Anyways as you said in regards to the TIAS - Japanset Linkage, i agree that i am sure it will be entirely possible to fix. After all, as is stated, it IS an alpha release.