Distant-join-stations (in trunk)

[ostlandr]

It's in trunk! It will be so nice to be able to join a bus and truck station when there aren't two straight level stretches of road to put them on. And I just build a bus stop connected to the main rail station without (as has been said) demolishing three square blocks of commercial buildings. (Three square blocks because the horsies in eGRVTS need drive-through stops.)

[Conditional Zenith]

I will admit I only read pages 1,6 and 7, but I couldn't find info on which stations are suitable to join with. I would guess that it is limited only by max station spread and that this feature doesn't allow exceeding the max station spread. Is this the case?

[Thief^]

Correct.

[Roujin]

I have played around with it a bit and have two remarks/suggestions.

Number one:

I think that when holding Ctrl, it should always pop up the selection window. This means eliminating the special case where
* Adjacent stations are allowed
* One station is neighboring
* Only that one station is in joinable distance
In this case, currently a new (seperate), adjacent station is built without a popup.
This is probably to be consistent with previous behavior.

I suggest removing this case, because sometimes I want to be able to "probe" the area without actually wanting to build a station there. I just want to see what possibilities I have. And in this one corner case, currently it just builds the station despite me having pressed Ctrl.
It's also not really controllable (= visible to the user before clicking) when this case will occur, since it depends on if another station is inside range. So I may be safe (= it doesn't immediately build) on this tile with an adjacent station, because some other station is near, but two tiles further, I'm not safe anymore.

I understand that this breaks consistency with how it worked before this patch in the case "one station adjacent and no other stations near", but in all cases "one station adjacent and SOME other station somewhere near", it is already different than it was.

So I think it's better to keep consistency considering different situations now, than consistency with how it worked before. And with my proposed change, one can still select either "join with the adjacent station" or "build a new station", from the join window, it's just one click more.

----
Number two:

I don't like how the selector kind of "freezes" in the main view and I can't do anything else anymore until I've chosen the station to join, or aborted. I'd like to compare this feature to bridge building. There you also first select your position (start and end in this case), then a window pops up, and only if you've made your choice in the window, the bridge is actually built. But while the bridge selection window is open, you can still do other things in the main viewport - most importantly: build the bridge again somewhere else because you realize you've misclicked one tile or so.
With the station joining window this is currently not possible.
Can this be changed so that it works like the bridge selection window? (That would also feel more consistent then...)

This would also be beneficial for the "probing" I mentioned above. I could just click with Ctrl pressed on several tiles one after another to see where I am still inside the station spread limit and where not.

[Gremnon]

On your second point - I prefer it the way it is, if anything I'd prefer the reverse so I know I haven't mis-placed a bridge because the point just touched the next tile without my noticing.

[Roujin]

Well maybe we can have an agreement somewhere in the middle.. (like, leaving a white mark where the to-be-built station is located, but also unfreezing the build tool), but currently something is definately wrong: You can click with your cursor in other places while the window is open (despite the white marker being frozen in place), and it will (a) if the place is a valid place for building a station: refocus the window (but still with the old position); (b) if the place is invalid: give an error message that you cannot build there.

Now this is inconsistent! Either clicking another tile causes the join window to be updated to that tile (my preference), or not. But if not, don't show an error that makes no sense.

[Gremnon]

Now that's interesting... I've yet to have a nonsensical message like that while using distant-join.
I'll have a little play about with it and see if I can get it myself... maybe it'll convince me to your point of view.

[PhilSophus]

Guys, this patch has been around for ages and now that it is in trunk, you start suggesting changes and reporting problems?

As for the freezing: When you select another station type / orientation / size the highlight is unfrozen and the selector window deleted.

but currently something is definately wrong: You can click with your cursor in other places while the window is open (despite the white marker being frozen in place), and it will (a) if the place is a valid place for building a station: refocus the window (but still with the old position);

You mean the flashing of the selector window? I wouldn't call that wrong behavior. It could be understood as "No, don't click on the map, I want your attention at this window." This is quite similar to the behavior of modal dialogs in most GUIs (though the selector window is not really modal).

(b) if the place is invalid: give an error message that you cannot build there.

That indeed should not happen. I hope to find the time to have a look at it this weekend.

I think that when holding Ctrl, it should always pop up the selection window. This means eliminating the special case where
* Adjacent stations are allowed
* One station is neighboring
* Only that one station is in joinable distance
In this case, currently a new (seperate), adjacent station is built without a popup.
This is probably to be consistent with previous behavior.

I suggest removing this case, because sometimes I want to be able to "probe" the area without actually wanting to build a station there. I just want to see what possibilities I have. And in this one corner case, currently it just builds the station despite me having pressed Ctrl.
It's also not really controllable (= visible to the user before clicking) when this case will occur, since it depends on if another station is inside range. So I may be safe (= it doesn't immediately build) on this tile with an adjacent station, because some other station is near, but two tiles further, I'm not safe anymore.

I understand that this breaks consistency with how it worked before this patch in the case "one station adjacent and no other stations near", but in all cases "one station adjacent and SOME other station somewhere near", it is already different than it was.

So I think it's better to keep consistency considering different situations now, than consistency with how it worked before. And with my proposed change, one can still select either "join with the adjacent station" or "build a new station", from the join window, it's just one click more.

I also wasn't sure about this consistent behavior vs. traditional behavior, either. To my astonishment, nobody ever objected against it in the 9 months it was like that. So, I left it as it was, as everyone seemed to be satisfied with it. What's the opinion of others? Should it stay as it is or be changed according to Roujin's suggestion.

[Thief^]

I would expect ctrl-click to always bring up the dialog, even with no nearby stations. With none nearby, it should come up anyway saying "no nearby stations" or something. Normal click should just build unless there are two stations adjacent, when it should show the dialog asking which one to join (preferably only showing adjacent stations not all in range in this case). I wouldn't see a need for the patch option if it worked this way.
EDIT: To clarify, I think ctrl-clicking next to a single station should still bring up the dialog.

[Roujin]

Guys, this patch has been around for ages and now that it is in trunk, you start suggesting changes and reporting problems?

Well, I didn't test it before since I don't usually do stationwalking or such and thus wasn't really interested in it. If I had, I would have complained about it earlier..
I guess everyone was so happy about the ability your patch offers so that they didn't test it thoroughly

As for the freezing: When you select another station type / orientation / size the highlight is unfrozen and the selector window deleted.

I know, but for reasons I stated above I'd like to still be able to select a new position for my station, while the window is active.
To sum them up again:
a) If I just want to "probe" the area and see where I have which stations available to join
b) If I misclicked by one tile or so and want to correct it
c) It would then look/feel consistent with bridge building.

but currently something is definately wrong: You can click with your cursor in other places while the window is open (despite the white marker being frozen in place), and it will (a) if the place is a valid place for building a station: refocus the window (but still with the old position);

You mean the flashing of the selector window? I wouldn't call that wrong behavior. It could be understood as "No, don't click on the map, I want your attention at this window." This is quite similar to the behavior of modal dialogs in most GUIs (though the selector window is not really modal).[...]

Here, I just meant that the (a) and (b) parts are not consistent - since you stated that (b) is a bug and you'll fix it when you have time, this is settled. (Although I'd rather have the possibility to replace the station position, see above )

[...consistency vs traditional...]
I also wasn't sure about this consistent behavior vs. traditional behavior, either. To my astonishment, nobody ever objected against it in the 9 months it was like that. So, I left it as it was, as everyone seemed to be satisfied with it. What's the opinion of others? Should it stay as it is or be changed according to Roujin's suggestion.

Well, maybe it wasn't really noticed at all? Think about it, it only happens if you click with Ctrl adjacent to an existent station, with no other station nearby (not mentioning having all relevant advanced settings activated in the first place).
It only happens when you explicitly want two stations directly next to each other, far away from any other stations...

-----------
edit:

I would expect ctrl-click to always bring up the dialog, even with no nearby stations it should come up anyway saying "no nearby stations" or something.

This is already happening currently. It's only this strange special case with exactly one station adjacent, where no window is opened.

Normal click should just build unless there are two stations adjacent, when it should show the dialog asking which one to join (preferably only showing adjacent stations not all in range in this case). I wouldn't see a need for the patch option if it worked this way.

This is currently not happening. Currently, the case with two adjacent stations (and Ctrl NOT pressed) still results in an error shown.

[Conditional Zenith]

Guys, this patch has been around for ages and now that it is in trunk, you start suggesting changes and reporting problems?

Well the patch hitting trunk causes a lot more people to become exposed to it

[Thief^]

Perhaps we need a poll.

[Torben DH]

ive been using this patch for a long time and it works fine as it is for me!! often use it because i want most possibly industries to be connnected to same station...

love it see no reason to change it...

[Roujin]

ive been using this patch for a long time and it works fine as it is for me!! often use it because i want most possibly industries to be connnected to same station...

love it see no reason to change it...

Well, you're happy with the function it offers, great. Station walking without the tedious walking part.
Well I am too. But honestly speaking, you don't really care about consistency and that special case I mentioned, or do you?

[Timitry]

First of all: Thanks for this great patch, it is really useful and i'm very happy to see it in trunk

I did not yet notice the problem Roujin described, but reading it i get his point and totally agree with him!

[Torben DH]

@roujin i wouldnt say i disagree with you and/or that i dont care about the issue you pointed out. all im saying is that for th kinda games i play its perfect

[nulio]

Hi!

I didn't try it yet but I already love it.

One question. Is this only present in r14121 or also in the next nightlies?

I'm playing with r14745 and pressing ctrl while placing a station nothings happens.

Thanks

[Yexo]

The topic title is a bit confusing, but it was implemented in r14919.

[nulio]

Thanks. That explains it.

[Timitry]

There also is an option in the advanced settings menu to turn it off or on, but it is enabled by default, so that should not be a problem