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 Post subject: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:06 am 
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Engineer
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How about adding support for individual vehicle colours? So bus routes can be colour-coded, like real-life? Would that be possible? Can't imagine it'd be too hard... or maybe someone has already done this. If so, point me in the right direction!

For anyone who doesn't understand what I'm suggesting... I would like a couple of red buses to run from A to B, and a couple of yellow buses to run from B to C, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:13 am 
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It wouldn't be too hard to do in newgrf with callback 2D. If you wanted it universally available with all vehicle sets, that would need a patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:28 am 
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It's something I've wished I could do. I like having different services in different colours, so that I can see which route they are on at a glance. At the moment, this means running an unholy mix of diesel, steam, electric, DMU and EMU based trains, and can't be done for buses at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:31 am 
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Of course, I have a patch ... that adds colour selection for vehicle groups. This would seem to do the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:34 am 
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peter1138 wrote:
Of course, I have a patch ... that adds colour selection for vehicle groups. This would seem to do the job.


want! :shock:


or, to put it a bit more sophisticated: I would be grateful if you shared your patch with us, dear peter.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:46 am 
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Wow, colours for vehicle groups would be a fantastic feature!

Roujin wrote:
want! :shock:
I prefer this way of saying it!

The gods of OpenTTD really have been kind to us lately! :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:35 pm 
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Well... the above-mentioned patch would do the trick, even if its not what I was really hoping for. Any links to check it out?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who'd like this feature introduced.


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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:06 pm 
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That sounds like an excellent patch!

Everyone loves a colourful railway!


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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:36 pm 
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Seems to me that's perfect for the job, I already separate my different services with groups. Being able to change their colour on the group menu would be a big help.

I can finally own a series of different coloured airlines simultaneously :D

peter1138 wrote:
Of course, I have a patch ... that adds colour selection for vehicle groups. This would seem to do the job.


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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:43 am 
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Brianetta wrote:
It's something I've wished I could do. I like having different services in different colours, so that I can see which route they are on at a glance.
So, something that applies to all vehicles that share a certain set of orders would be satisfactory?

The solution I am considering for TTDPatch would be tied to the order list, not the vehicle proper. As such, all vehicles that share an order set would automatically get the same colour(s), but you couldn't make finer specifications than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:37 am 
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DaleStan wrote:
Brianetta wrote:
It's something I've wished I could do. I like having different services in different colours, so that I can see which route they are on at a glance.
So, something that applies to all vehicles that share a certain set of orders would be satisfactory?

The solution I am considering for TTDPatch would be tied to the order list, not the vehicle proper. As such, all vehicles that share an order set would automatically get the same colour(s), but you couldn't make finer specifications than that.


Uhm... I think originally the idea was to put the same colour to vehicles belonging to the same group. That may be more coarse, or more detailed than one set of (shared) orders or not. Preferrably (IMO) it's more coarse as it then allows you to have, say, all ore and coal trains of the same colour in order to indicate that they're slow, and have all ICE trains of another and express freight of a third. (yes, I'm aware that the wagons don't look alike in this example) Giving a seperate colour to each order is probably more hassle than giving to a group of vehicles.

On the other hand, there are, of course, also good arguments for a colour per order list.
The result might in the end be the same, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:38 am 
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as you can easily make a group from an order list, i don't think there's much use directly associating colours with orders

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:59 am 
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Eddi wrote:
as you can easily make a group from an order list, i don't think there's much use directly associating colours with orders

I'm not using groups too often, though they're quite useful: is there an easier way to put all trains with the same (shared) orders into one group than dragging each into it?

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:34 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:15 pm 
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Engineer
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Hmmm... some good suggestions here. Personally I think that setting different vehicle colours to orders would be silly.

For example, where I live, there is a service called Rainbow 5. It runs from A to B, A to C, A to D, A to E and A to F. All of them are purple. Other services, such as Rainbow 2, run from G to I via H. Rainbow 2 is yellow. Route 15 runs from H to J, and is orange. All these routes belong to the same bus company. I think its a shame such a situation, which must be a reality all over the country, or indeed the world, cannot currently be recreated in OpenTTD. Colours by group would be a very practical solution to this, as all the above routes can be grouped into services, and given appropriate colours.


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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:42 am 
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Eddi wrote:
as you can easily make a group from an order list, i don't think there's much use directly associating colours with orders

Not orders. Order lists.

Any two vehicles that share orders will have the same colors. Any two vehicles that do not share orders can be configured independently of each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:19 am 
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DaleStan wrote:
Eddi wrote:
as you can easily make a group from an order list, i don't think there's much use directly associating colours with orders

Not orders. Order lists.

Any two vehicles that share orders will have the same colors. Any two vehicles that do not share orders can be configured independently of each other.


Nice idea, but in the case I outlined above, would not be practical. Would be far easier to just create routes as normal, then create groups and have the groups colour the vehicles for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:33 am 
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Dalestan (and OpenTTD devs),

I had an idea for combining orders, groups (as seen in OpenTTD) and liveries. It would involve a change in game play, but it would (I believe, having spoken to my wife about her experience trying to understand the game) make the game much easier to understand.

Borrowing heavily from Simutrans' idea of lines, we define groups first. Groups can contain other groups, giving a hierarchy, and can contain vehicles. A group has an orders list, and a colour scheme or livery too. A group's orders and livery are applied to the vehicles contained within that group. A group inherits orders and liveries from its parent (the group in which it is contained), and its children inherit orders and liveries from it in turn. Any group with an order list or livery of its own completely overrides that of its parent, and passes its own on to its children. Vehicles within a group use the group's orders list, not their own.

Commands sent to a group are sent to all children, grandchildren, etc of that group (for example, go to depot, auto-replace, etc).

The top level group has an empty orders list and uses the main company colour scheme.

Groups could be enhanced to also define service intervals, timetables and other user-definable vehicular attributes that may become available. Groups could, but probably shouldn't, contain more than one type of vehicle. The user should be able to copy the orders of one group into another, to allow that order list to be used as the basis for a new one. "Cloning" such orders should be regarded as meaningless and confusing, and not implemented. All cloning should be handled by inheritance and group membership.

The big advantage here, for the user, is that they are defining services ("Lines," as Simutrans puts it) first, and then deciding which of their vehicles should be running in which service. It's never ambiguous, whether orders are shared or not. Since groups can be placed in a larger group, and divided into smaller groups, without affecting orders and colours, it's still possible to use them in the OpenTTD fashion for group control (sending all the members of a group off to be upgraded, etc).

The user interface itself could be almost exactly the same as the current OpenTTD interface, but with child groups appearing below (and idented beyond) their parent, and additonal buttons for orders, liveries and anything else. Changing the orders of a vehicle would change the order list that it's currently using, and that group's name should be clearly presented on the orders page of the vehicle, so that the user knows exactly what is being changed.

In order to preserve the gameplay expected by, and provided for, Transport Tycoon Deluxe players, vehicles should be default be created in the "ungrouped" group, and members of the "ungrouped" group should have their own orders list. I suggest the current mechanism of sharing orders (control-clicking another vehicle) be abandoned in favour of group based orders.

So, the following objectives would be met by this suggestion:
  • The game interface is unchanged for players used to Transport Tycoon Deluxe, and can be used in that way
  • Once a player starts to use shared orders, it's very clear which vehicles use those orders
  • Vehicles can be easily and unambiguously transferred from one orders list to another
  • An orders list does not vanish if there are no vehicles using it, but is still visible and can be re-used
  • Vehicles on given routes can be given distinctive colours
  • Vehicle groups can be arbitrarily sub-divided for management (an example: same orders, but bought more recently)
  • Vehicle groups can be placed within groups for management (an example: all trains on the north network, can be stopped and started together for signal work)

I'm sure there are other benefits, and (aside from the development work) few drawbacks. Opinions?
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Last edited by Brianetta on Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:38 am 
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I believe that the game play change is too great and move too far away from TTD although essentially RCT works like that minus the orders.

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 Post subject: Re: Vehicle colours
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:42 am 
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Tycoon
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robotboy wrote:
I believe that the game play change is too great and move too far away from TTD although essentially RCT works like that minus the orders.

The game play change is minimal, if you don't use shared orders or groups.

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