Questions on OTTD

[Born Acorn]

Well, custom bridge heads is when a flat bridgehead is treated as any other buildonslopes tile, and can be host to junctions. Currently Celestar and KUDr have a branch.

I thought It had been merged and everything then.

[DaleStan]

I *did* read through that list before posting it. I guess I didn't do a very good job, though.

Noted, with the following exceptions: Patch also has a new terrain generator, albeit one that can't load PNG files, and Patch is also translated into several different languages (fourteen, if I counted correctly).

And by "error messages when a newgrf doesn't load", I mean the full gamut listed here, not the messages generated by an action B.

OTTD also has a very large number of user patches,

As I've said before. Things not in trunk don't count, and things not even in SVN definitely don't count. If I have to have a compiler to use the feature in question, it hardly counts as "official".
Given that MiniIN is going the way of the dodo, I'm not going to try to keep track of what it has for the next month or two before it actually does.

many of the Sign cheats, : OTTD takes a non-cheat approach to many of these things, (converting track), or you can use the console (resetengines)

Thus "many", not "most", and definitely not "all". Many of them (ResetIndustries, for example) don't even apply. And Open's track conversion is in no way comparable to Patch's. Patch lets you convert track while there are trains on it.

sell vehicle by dragging out of depot window, : unwanted.

Incorrect. I want it, therefore it is wanted. It gives me a target several hundred times larger, thus several hundred times faster to access.
Fitts' law.

FIFO loading, : in OTTD

Is that so? Last I heard, it was FIRO loading.

practically all of the miscmods and experimentalfeatures bits (there are currently a total of 39), : if you count these, then you count the several hundred+ OTTD patches available.

No, I don't. If I have to have a compiler to use the feature, it ain't official.

path-based signalling, : new signalling system in design. all signals will be PBS in effect. may go to "just in time Green" approach

How nice. I'll add it to the list when it GETS INTO TRUNK!

I seem to be repeating myself, so I'll stop. Feel free to repost anything that you think hasn't been covered.

If OTTD beat TTDP in EVERY department,

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about that. At least not for the forseeable future. If nothing else, it'll be a long time (if ever) before TTDPatch's binary downloads exceed the size of OpenTTD's binary downloads.

[peter1138]

*yawn*

[Kanibal]

Well, I've got the lastest version of OTTD and I see your point of view. Its brilliant and I've got a great game going online. However I do miss the graphics from TTDPatch. Anyone know a server that uses them and what one I need to go there?

[DaleStan]

Brianetta usually uses quite a few GRF files on his server.

[richk67]

Overall, the items you comment on from my post are mostly ethos items; OTTD doesnt do unofficial stuff in the trunk, and is a MUCH younger project - something you do not, ever, seem to acknowledge. To be as far as we are, in as short a time is truly impressive.

On your pet TTDP bonus - the drag out-of-window delete. Its ethos; the devs dont want it. Its a bit of a "casual" action, and we have perfectly useful button to now "Sell All", or you can drag to the delete box(es). 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. On this, its not TTDP better - its different. Personally I would hate having the possibility that an accidental mouse sweep could kill an entire train.

Sign cheats: ethos again. Many functions are actually available in the console. The correct place for cheat controls, not on some graphic sign on the map. Talk about a hack!

FIFO loading? I cant remember when OTTD wasnt FIFO loading. You clearly havent played a game in ages!! Come join on Celestar's or Brianetta's server - you might enjoy it!

PBS? You derided the old PBS bugfest, and now that a new PBS/new signalling is in full design, you dismiss that as well. We cant win. One thing is for sure... whatever the new system will be, there is NO ARGUMENT. It is being designed 100% for immediate (once tested) inclusion in trunk. Or are we not allowed to take time to develop it right, so you can brow-beat us?

Our binaries are only bigger if you overlook the fact that TTDP requires the original TTDX binaries too. And large parts of the binaries are due to external includes that are platform necessary for various bits of new OTTD functionality (eg. font support for utf-8, etc.) . Anyway, who cares if OTTD is > 1Mb, and TTDP < 1Mb, when a BMP screendump is going to be larger than the executable it came from? Granted, you gave me a laugh at the desperation of that benefit of TTDP

[Ailure]

I probably would still be using TTDpatch if it weren't for some problems I had, although some of them could probably be blamed on the original game than TTDpatch still. And users and developers of either seems to have different ideas of how the game should be extended. In the end, what's the best is probably a matter of personal preference, and some people like to use both.

Only thing that would make me consider testing TTDpatch at this point is newIndustries. Nothing else. Maybe we even see it finished before this summer for openTTD.

And I like the ethics that openTTD development have. Sure it's harsh and hard to get a patch applied to trunk, but on the other hand I had a very few crashed related to the nightlies. I can only recall a single time infact. (now the mini-in on the other hand is... really really unstable. I only tried it once for testing the subsidiary patch).

Just don't bring up really minor points that none really cares about now. Patches of a hack takes obviously takes less space than a full program, but this doesn't matter much when the hack is applied. And then TTDpatch is low-level programmed in assembly, which usually is more space efficient and faster than C++ (but the difference is quite minor for modern applications).

[DaleStan]

OTTD doesnt do unofficial stuff in the trunk, and is a MUCH younger project

Patch doesn't either. Anything that goes into trunk is official. And yes, OpenTTD is a younger project. About a quarter as old? Now, how many times more people know C than x86 assembly? I'm guessing it's at least two orders of magnitude. Let's be conservative, and say twelve times. Using those numbers, Open has had three times as much programmer-time as Patch. Unless you have a good reason to challenge those numbers, I don't really think you want to bring this up again.

On your pet TTDP bonus

No, that's only one of several. Other things that manage to annoy me within five game-days of starting any OpenTTD game are the hotkeys, autorail, and the lack of autoslope. Give it five months, and I'll want PBS and custom bridgeheads too.

Sign cheats: ethos again. Many functions are actually available in the console. The correct place for cheat controls, not on some graphic sign on the map. Talk about a hack!

I've got no problem with moving the sign-cheats to the console, as long as there's a decent way to do the location-specific sign cheats (eg ResetThisStation) But several of them aren't on the console. They aren't anywhere at all. And that's the problem.

FIFO loading? I cant remember when OTTD wasnt FIFO loading. You clearly havent played a game in ages!!

So, which switch do I have to turn on? Unless something has changed since 0.5.0 was branched from trunk, which you imply is not the case, the "improved loading algorithm" switch is not FIFO. See the attached save (0.5.0 RC4). Train 3 will arrive at the station before train 2, but train 2 will be loaded first.

PBS? You derided the old PBS bugfest, and now that a new PBS/new signalling is in full design, you dismiss that as well. We cant win

I'll quit dismissing it when it is in trunk. You want to discuss things that are "in design"? TTDPatch gains newairports, newroutes, newobjects, an A* pathfinder, and functional multiplayer. And probably at least five other major things that no one will know about until Oskar or JGR release them fully-formed onto the world. And at least one of those will never have been conceived by anyone else.
No, you can't win. Not until you actually (*gasp*) release it. Everybody and his brother can "design" something. Making it work is an entirely different matter.

It is being designed 100% for immediate (once tested) inclusion in trunk. Or are we not allowed to take time to develop it right, so you can brow-beat us?

You're allowed to do whatever you please. This includes rattling about the enormous quantity of Patch bugs, the number of released binaries since the Patch bug in question was first discovered, the number of features that Open has and Patch doesn't, &c.. Turnabout is absolutely fair play. When I claim that Open can't do something that it, in fact can, come down on me like a ton of bricks. Even a long ton, if you so desire.

I'm going continue to list that Patch has PBS and Open doesn't until such time as PBS (or something PBS-like) appears in Open's nightlies, or a major bug appears in Patch's implementation that causes Patchman to remove PBS. I trust that you'll get it right this time, and that I won't have to "brow-beat" you until the bugs go away.

[richk67]

No, you can't win.

Unlike you, Im not trying to win a contest on this. You are pro-TTDP.

Many of us here wish you would take that view and stop shoving it up our noses. We are in the OTTD forums for a reason... to talk OTTD, not bow and scrape to TTDP worshippers.

OTTD != TTDP. They are different. Just leave it at that.

<end>

(And before you claim some victory... I am choosing to walk away, because I have far better things to do than argue with the most belligerent poster I have ever met on any forum. Like actually write things that improve the game... OTTD New Airports, OTTD TGP, OTTD RouteMarkers, OTTD Transfers, etc.)

[DeletedUser21]

If a program version is free of bugs, it's obsolete.

[Johnny B Goode]

OTTD does not have/TTDP has: disaster selection, configurable hotkeys, one-way roads, morestatistics, followvehicle, enhanced tunnels, trams.

Valance has an excellent tramway patch.

[richk67]

Dont get Dalestan (re)started, please D doesnt count anything that isnt in the full, non-RC, versions of OTTD. So if its a patch, it doesnt count.

[athanasios]

The plain truth is that after some years TTDP will be dead and OpenTTD will continue ...

I say this not because I don't like TTDP, but because TTD has limitations that TTDP cannot overcome. So we shouldn't say TTDP has this and OpenTTD not. In the future OpenTTD will have same feature, but many features of OpenTTD cannot go in TTDP.

It is not good to start comparing them. Both have given us nice new features.

[Sleepie]

The plain truth is that after some years TTDP will be dead and OpenTTD will continue ...

I don't agree with you and don't think that this will happen and please stop making those statements, because this will end in another flame war that we had in the past.

Regards

Sleepie

[DaleStan]

The plain truth is that after some years TTDP will be dead and OpenTTD will continue ...

And you present what evidence to support this claim?

I say this not because I don't like TTDP, but because TTD has limitations that TTDP cannot overcome.

Such as?

In the future OpenTTD will have same feature, but many features of OpenTTD cannot go in TTDP.

This is provably not true. Several important TTDPatch features have been filed under "This is an evil hack and Open will never do this." Selling by dragging vehicles out of the depot window is one such feature.
Also, the tgr* switch family has been filed under "entirely too complex", as have the mountains and curves switches. The same apparently applies to the aichoosechances family and the townbuildnoroads/townroadbranchprob switches.

[DeletedUser21]

I think that both TTDP and OTTD will survive. But (altough I can't support this claim with evidence) I think OTTD's development is faster than that of TTDP.

Indeed TTDP needs to workaround every limitation the game has and OTTD has a benefit here. Therefore I think that for a new TTDP feature has to be implemented a workaround is needed sometimes to overcome a limitation of the original game. (Not always since a feature can be build on the excisting system sometimes too ofcourse.) OTTD's has also internal system limitations but those limitations are written by the developers themselves in order for something to work. Yes they also need a workaround but I think adjusting/modifying your own code is a little bit better than changing something that is not written by you.
Long story short: I think OTTD has a little bit more adaptability therefore I think development is a bit faster than TTDP.

I like TT, and I like the motives to make a great game better. So kudo's to the Patch devs and to Open's devs for realizing this.