[RFD] Signaling

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Zuu
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Post by Zuu »

Hyronymus wrote:
SHADOW-XIII wrote:Hyronymus, I know ... but TTDPatch PBS signals are only workaround since you can't put signal between to junction squares (that signal would 'split' junction into 2 ways, and it would work exacly as now PBS) ...
so if TE will allow putting multuiple signals at 1 square (for example at all rail exits) then extra special PBS support will be not needed since it will work already
I tried to say that too but your explanation is clearer :).

Zuu: why? In the share infrastructure thread a selection tool was suggested to clearly indicate what track is being shared. If you keep your eyes open and your brain online you can decide yourself if you want to allow the AI on your high speed line.
Maybe.

My suggestion in this thread was connected to thispost. I did't took any note to any previous ideas realy when I made up that idea.

EDIT:
I think either you select areas with a tool and the signals have to look up this selections, or you place signals that you 'program' to only show green when your own train passes. And I did't thoght that it was decided which variant to use.
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Post by ChrisCF »

SHADOW-XIII wrote:Hyronymus, I know ... but TTDPatch PBS signals are only workaround since you can't put signal between to junction squares (that signal would 'split' junction into 2 ways, and it would work exacly as now PBS) ...
You don't need an extra signal to split the junction unless your basic signalling system has all the intelligence of CIA operatives. A sensible system with some smarts will allow one signal to show how the route lies for wherever your train is going, not for everything that's in front of it. Which is why signals at junctions should show danger by default until something wants to cross it.
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Post by Steve »

If you consider a TTD style station, in front of it are a maze of tracks allowing trains to get to each platform and entrance/exit. Your saying, that as long as we have room for signals, we don't need PBS. Not true. If we dumped signals between all the points on that station, you'd get blockages and such. Whereas, PBS allows multiple trains to exit and enter the station at once, with the minimum of hassle! Yay!
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Post by ChrisCF »

Steve wrote:If you consider a TTD style station, in front of it are a maze of tracks allowing trains to get to each platform and entrance/exit.
Sounds good.
Your saying, that as long as we have room for signals, we don't need PBS.
I'm sorry, I must have missed that part of my argument ... ;)
If we dumped signals between all the points on that station, you'd get blockages and such.
Only if your signalling system is as retarded as that in TTD.

Take a real station, and you have one signal out of the platform, which will tell you when you're allowed to cross the maze of tracks. You don't have another signal on the other side of the maze of tracks, because you don't need one - you've already been told by the first that it's safe to cross the maze of tracks. Someone coming in the other direction hits a signal on the entrance, which will tell them which platform at the station they'll need. You don't need a signal between the two trains, since the signalling system should be intelligent enough to find routes across it which don't conflict. You don't need another signal at the platform entrance, since the previous signal has already indicated that it is safe to enter.
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Post by Hyronymus »

There are 3 topics about signalling: this RFD topic, one normal topic and 1 DD topic. There is still no agreement though. The last thing mentioned in the DD topic on signalling was:
aarona wrote:Okay here my attempt to describe how they might be coded.

Smart signals:
Every time a train approaches a signal it checks its state and follows its speed instructions (green, amber, red).
When a train passes a green or amber signal, it "picks up" its instructions from the signal (i.e. switch to track B and proceed with caution, or all clear, etc). This would mean that whenever trains pass a signal, all nearby signals (the current line, the spur line and any line affected by the passage of said train) would need to be modified.
It would also mean that the signals "know" the train, and where it needs to go. (Hence signalling would be where the processing needs to be done)

Is this method any different than the olden days? When a train approached a signal box, they were usually manned by someone whose job it was to ensure the ahead track was free by telegraphic communication.

This of course can be viewed in the modern times, with the trains picking up their instructions on the fly.

Smart trains:
Trains just know where to go and tell the signals when they go past that they would like to switch to another track. This is the same as PBS+TTDPatch. If said train is going to go into this path, then the corresponding signals are blocked. (In this case its the trains which tell the signals what to do)

They are essentially the same thing but philosophically different.
Personally I prefer the signal tells train method because its more realistic. People could perhaps control individual signals to re-route trains in the event of a bottleneck or whatnot.
The normal topic on signalling can be found here (locked now). It's time to make up our mind and reach a decision.

Please read all posts before you reply to this topic. We don't need old arguments, we need to make a decision this time.
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Post by Purno »

I like the smart signals thing which you quoted from the DD. It allows more realistic graphics (advanced signals), and I think it solves jams better than smart trains. I only wonder if this would make the signalling system anything more complicated for the player. Or will these smart signals automatically 'convert' themselves to whatever type of signal is necessary (I'm thinking in relation of pre-signals now)?
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Post by Hyronymus »

If I understood the way signals in real life work properly we don't need pre-signals. Every signal is a pre-signal because it warns on what is to come. TTD has two signal settings: safe and unsafe. TE will have three signal settings: safe (green), unsafe (red) and safe until the next signal (amber).

But the core issue is:

- do we want trains that influence signals
or
- do we want signals that influence trains
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Post by Purno »

Hyronymus wrote:If I understood the way signals in real life work properly we don't need pre-signals. Every signal is a pre-signal because it warns on what is to come. TTD has two signal settings: safe and unsafe. TE will have three signal settings: safe (green), unsafe (red) and safe until the next signal (amber).
Tho, what about the complete system of pre, exit, and combo signals? (for example, a pre-signal being red if all platforms of a station are full? Will the signals check in the trains order wether the trains needs to be at that station?)
But the core issue is:

- do we want trains that influence signals
or
- do we want signals that influence trains
I want the trains orders to influence how the signal is going to influence the train. :wink:
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Post by Hyronymus »

Purno wrote:Tho, what about the complete system of pre, exit, and combo signals? (for example, a pre-signal being red if all platforms of a station are full? Will the signals check in the trains order wether the trains needs to be at that station?)
That are all workaround for a failing signalling system in TTD. TE has to solve this with normal signals: no free track behind a signal means no passage beyond that signal.
Purno wrote:
But the core issue is:

- do we want trains that influence signals
or
- do we want signals that influence trains
I want the trains orders to influence how the signal is going to influence the train. Wink
I'm trying to be serious here, I want this project to gain on clarity.
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Post by Purno »

Hyronymus wrote:
Purno wrote:Tho, what about the complete system of pre, exit, and combo signals? (for example, a pre-signal being red if all platforms of a station are full? Will the signals check in the trains order wether the trains needs to be at that station?)
That are all workaround for a failing signalling system in TTD. TE has to solve this with normal signals: no free track behind a signal means no passage beyond that signal.
Well, there are cases there are tracks free, but those aren't leading to the station. Tho, I guess a signal could check that in the trains orders, and if the train needs to be at the station, it waits, and if it doesn't need to be at the station, it gets directed the other (free) way.
Purno wrote:
But the core issue is:

- do we want trains that influence signals
or
- do we want signals that influence trains
I want the trains orders to influence how the signal is going to influence the train. :wink:
I'm trying to be serious here, I want this project to gain on clarity.
What makes you think I wasn't serious? A signal can only correctly influence a train if it knows its orders.
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Post by eis_os »

If your signal knows the order of the train then you will already have a path based signaling (much or less) Because your train needs to actually know if it needs to avoid the busy station/path or not.

So you can't simple look at the train to decide if a signal is green, you needs it's path to destination. All other won't work.

Or you do it like TTD and have block based system, blocks can influence each other. Thats how Presignals actually work. Signalblocks interact with each other.

About "amber", in generally it really depends always on the next signal or I would be totally wrong. So you still need to test if the next signal shows green, or well "amber" aswell. Generally you only move the status decision to next following signal...
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Post by XeryusTC »

I think that signals at splits should behave "smart", turning green when the path which the train should take is green (or orange). Signals could also behave like presignals this way, they would just turn red if there is no free platform, this also allows you to have a station entry and a station bypass at the same signal block (considering TTD) which actually works as it should*, it shouldn't allow trains to enter the station, but could allow other trains to bypass it when they don't need to go to the station.
Signals on normal non-splitting tracks** however would have the default real world signal system, red if occupied, orange if the next block is occupied and green if all clear, with red being default (purely cosmetic).

*

Code: Select all

----SxSPPPP
----SxSPPPP
      \-----
S being a signal, P a platform, - a piece of track and x a crossover

**

Code: Select all

---S---S---S---S---
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Post by m3henry »

I would say about overtaking, two-way 4-aspect signals. then it would choose the one with the highest aspect.

speculation: On high speed lines, 5-aspect signalling:

Code: Select all

red           = 100%
yellow        = 50%
double yellow = 25%
yellow green  = 10%
green         = no slow down
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Post by Purno »

That might be a bit *too* exagerrated, IMO. Just red, yellow, green would do, I guess.
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Post by Hyronymus »

This is what I fear: new suggestions. We don't need new suggestions, we need decisions. Please stick to what's been proposed already and try to reach a decision based on that.
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Post by Dave »

I think four aspect works best, as with British signalling.

How this would work in TE is anyone's guess.

I assume that it would work on the basis that slowing down would be required for each aspect.

Thus:

Green: Path is clear, Full Speed.
Double Yellow: Next signal is Yellow, begin to reduce speed.
Yellow: Next signal is at danger, reduce speed in preparation to stop.
Red: Danger. Do not proceed.

Most British trains are limited to 40mph at yellow signals (I think - someone should confirm that for me), but this could be changed through customisation? Obviously you want to keep the game quite generic? So I guess it could have a simple system that has "slots" available for different aspects that can be customised.

For the general system -

Green: Proceed.
Yellow: Reduced speed (Probably 40-60%)
Red: Danger.

(Having just read what Hyronymus said, I will make this post "legitimate" by adding my two cents)

For me, it's got to be the smart signals. This is as it is in real life. I know some of you guys aren't all for realism, but surely we want to retain a degree of it.
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Post by XeryusTC »

I think it would be the easiest for the user to understand if we had a red/green system, but I also wan't a bit of realism so adding only 1 orange state would be fine with me (not more please, it could get confusing).
Dave Worley wrote:This is as it is in real life. I know some of you guys aren't all for realism, but surely we want to retain a degree of it.
[OT]I also wan't to keep a bit of realism, but we can't go 100%, this would get way too complicated.[/OT]

To summarise: We all kinda agree on having 3 signal states, and having smart/PBS signal blocks for crossings etc.
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Post by Dave »

XeryusTC wrote:I think it would be the easiest for the user to understand if we had a red/green system, but I also wan't a bit of realism so adding only 1 orange state would be fine with me (not more please, it could get confusing).
Dave Worley wrote:This is as it is in real life. I know some of you guys aren't all for realism, but surely we want to retain a degree of it.
[OT]I also wan't to keep a bit of realism, but we can't go 100%, this would get way too complicated.[/OT]

To summarise: We all kinda agree on having 3 signal states, and having smart/PBS signal blocks for crossings etc.
What I meant by the "extra slots" thing was that "developers" could create their own aspects for use in the signalling system.

Wasn't the idea of TE to be customisable? Or was that dropped?
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Post by DominionSpy »

What about defining a generic system that can be customised later.
Chris mentioned something like this in the other thread.

If we go for that, then you might have preset systems for specific countries (ie I want to use the British system and somebody else wants a simple red/green system).

However, I feel that we should go more for simplicity than realism. We're not trying to make a copy of Train Simulator here.

So how about we have a system where you define the number of lights, their colours, the sequence and the reductions in speed all in a configuration file and have the game work out what they look like.

Using XML example:

Code: Select all

<signal-system name="British">
  <signal>
    <light colour="red"/>
    <light colour="yellow"/>
    <light colour="yellow"/>
    <light colour="green"/>
  </signal>
  <sequence>
    <step reduction="0">
      <on>4</on>
    </step>
    <step reduction="25">
      <on>2</on>
      <on>3</on>
    </step>
    <step reduction="50">
      <on>2</on>
    </step>
    <step reduction="100">
      <on>1</on>
    </step>
  </sequence>
</signal-system>
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Post by Hyronymus »

That makes a lot of sense DominionSpy, it gives room for custom sets and doesn't sound to hard to implement. Then there still is the question about smart trains or smart signals. I might sound like a nag but I'm on a "crusade" to get a workable DD.
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