OTTD 14.0 - Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares

[kamnet]

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and give developers flack for the choices they make on improving the game, but how many people here who are giving them the tongue lashing now are people who also help contribute to the code to help improve the game themselves?

What you write fits very well with what Pyoro wrote. Write a patch, create a new NewGRF if you see a problem, dedicate your life to the game, otherwise your contribution means nothing and we can ignore you.

The problem isn't that "your contribution means nothing", the problem is "you're not actually contributing".

That's where your rift is at, and honestly it's why most of the developers stopped interacting with users here years ago.

In the case of the development of the basic game version, there is often no space for discussion with the developers at all.

That is not true, nor has it ever been true. There has always been space for players and developers to have discussion over the development of the basic game. In the early 2000s that was done over a mailing list and IRC, then it moved to here between 2006 and 2018, and today it mostly takes place on GitHub and Discord.

A lot of PR from the developers, and especially from TrueBrain, are practically acts done that are not subject to discussion, much less criticism.

False.

You can make comments that will confirm the rightness of the change or will facilitate its final implementation, but you have no right to question the sense of making this change!

False.

If you do, your comment will be devalued to a single player voice, and if it will be a threat to implement the change, it will be censored and hidden. Moreover, this propensity to censor content that may prove inconvenient goes so far that sometimes even very neutral comments are censored for making remarks, which are later used anyway.

False, and I will ask you to show WHEN has anybody's comments been censored?

So, the negative perception of the developers of this game does not come from nowhere. Not all developers are responsible for this, but some in particular.

You're right, it doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from people who present false narratives and push factually wrong information.

I've seen the PR for deletion of shares, but I didn't see any point in making any comments or suggestions there. To be honest, I don't know what's the point of getting involved in the development of this game.

If that's how you feel, it's because that is the narrative that you have convinced yourself of, not because of anything else.

[skc]

<snip>
Importantly, removing features is clearly inconsistent with the goals of the OTTD project:

• Stay faithful to the original gameplay from TTD
• Take into account different playing styles

This change removes an element that has always been present in this game and that for some players was an important part of the gameplay.
<snip>

Finally, a valid, and irrefutable argument as to why shares shouldn't have been removed.
If you'd led with this, instead of the emotional "I don't like that you've removed the feature" argument, it would have saved a LOT of time for everyone.

Buying and selling shares was a part of the original TTD and, therefore, the original gameplay, so according to the project goals it is a feature that must be retained to stay faithful to the original.
It seems this project goal was overlooked by the dev's when PR #10709 was approved for merging into the codebase.

[kamnet]

Then we already had a problem because the implementation of how shares are managed violated "Stay faithful to the original gameplay from Transport Tycoon Deluxe".

If you scroll further down in the document, we have this:

For a long time, the official branch was also open to features which could be enabled/disabled, but the corner-cases that came with some configurations have rendered some parts of the code very complicated. Today, new features have to work with all the already existing features, which is not only challenging in corner cases, but also requires spending considerable more work than just "making it work in the game mode that I play".

It's clear that players were using the share system in a way that was not consistent with the original game, and are now arguing for "make it work in the game mode that I play" because the already existing feature was broken.

[Andrew350]

https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/10914 <-- there's your chance to contribute opinions on a proposed solution

And if you want to stay up-to-date on current events in the future, put this URL in your bookmarks for easy viewing of the latest changes and discussions: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issu ... dated-desc
No account required, although you will need one if you wish to contribute your opinions there, which by the way is a much better place to (politely and concisely) voice your concerns. The forum is rarely (basically never) used for development discussion and cannot be relied on for your thoughts being heard or (more importantly) remembered for future discussions and decisions

If you are looking for more intimate discussion, as has been pointed out already, most of "the devs" hangout here: https://discord.gg/openttd
Or on the IRC channel, both of which are linked together so you can see discussions on both platforms at once for extra convenience

The options for communication are there and are freely available to anyone. If you choose not to use these avenues to keep up with changes or to express your opinions on them then you cannot blame anyone for not knowing your feelings on these things. Hopefully this will improve a bit with the survey feature in future versions, but even then it is still best to make your voice heard directly and in the appropriate locations in order to help everyone in the long term

[odisseus]

Okay, this proposed "hostile takeover" feature seems to solve the problem.

[Eddi]

Buying and selling shares was a part of the original TTD and, therefore, the original gameplay, so according to the project goals it is a feature that must be retained to stay faithful to the original.

i wouldn't interpret it this strictly. while the shares system was part of the original game, it never really felt like a core feature of the game. (and i believe taking over companies this way was a later addition, but i'm not sure anymore)

[Argus]

This doesn't solve my problem if I'm using IdleAI, I don't want to take it over, but after all I only used it because the original IdleAI doesn't store company names. No problem at Idlemore.
I also feel that initially the company could not be bought in its entirety, 100%.

[jfs]

This doesn't solve my problem if I'm using IdleAI, I don't want to take it over, but after all I only used it because the original IdleAI doesn't store company names. No problem at Idlemore.
I also feel that initially the company could not be bought in its entirety, 100%.

I think you're leaving out something important from this.

What does the IdleAI do that requires you to own shares in it but not take it over?


Edit: Also, you do say that a different variation of the AI fixes/improves this? Then why continue using the first one at all?

[Argus]

Simple, I always forget that IdleAI doesn't store company names.
IdleAI doesn't do anything, but when I have a stake, I know which of these companies I want to go to and maybe even send them money. However, it can also be solved in another way – remember by colors, the director's picture, etc.
So I don't really have that much of a problem with this decision.
I can't describe it better because of my poor English

[odisseus]

Looks like you have been using share ownership as a means to keep notes about the companies. I think you would be much better off using signs instead. Also consider using an external program, such as Notepad.

[Eddi]

i think we have a winner for spacebar heating.

[Revenge_of_KioTheDev]

Buying and selling shares was a part of the original TTD and, therefore, the original gameplay, so according to the project goals it is a feature that must be retained to stay faithful to the original.

i wouldn't interpret it this strictly. while the shares system was part of the original game, it never really felt like a core feature of the game. (and i believe taking over companies this way was a later addition, but i'm not sure anymore)

either way taking control over 75% company used to emulate subsidiary company

now can no longer do that

also if devs continue to take out features they might actually break stuff, like save games no longer being playable

[luk3Z]

Removing the possibility to buy/sell company shares - bad idea
Rewriting/Upgrading mechanics of company shares - good idea

[odisseus]

I just realised there is another functionality that depends on being able to buy company shares. By buying just a fraction of the total shares, you can prevent other competitors from buying out the company in question. However, this functionality doesn't seem to be critical, and its removal won't affect the game as much as would removing the possibility to buy out companies altogether.

[pickpacket]

By buying just a fraction of the total shares, you can prevent other competitors from buying out the company in question.

That's an interesting observation, even though I struggle to find an actual reason to ever do that

[ra_27y]

I dont get time to play as much as I like these day or time to read or post much but I habve to say.
I dont want to see it go.
There got to be a way to fix it or at lest change it in way that fix it some how to keep us all happy.
I hope someone one can come up with something that can fix this.
But in mean time and at end of day, I can't see why it just not be kepy way it is and player that want to use it, use it and if you dont like it then just play game with out using it.
that not hard is it?

[kamnet]

that not hard is it?

That is easy to say when you're not the one responsible for trying to keep it running in an ever-changing environment. The problem is that it was fundamentally broken. It makes no sense to continue having a piece of code that doesn't work or work as intended.

So, it's now gone, there's at least one feature coming to address some of the concerns brought up here with regard to buying out pesky AIs. There's also discussion on a replacement system where you can contribute your own thoughts.

[ra_27y]

Thanks I will have a look at them.

As i'm not a coder I dont full understand all the the issuer that you have to keep the game up and running.
im very greatfull for all the hard work that goes in to updateing the game. All of you that do it are bloodly to a great job and big thank yot to you all.

The best I can do is give a liitle money when I have spare to help out.

again thanksk will look at post.