Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

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sirrliv
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by sirrliv »

So, reading through the past couple posts and being both an amateur railroad historian and a lifelong fan of railroad tycoon games, here's my two bits on the quandry your facing:

It seems to me like the most efficient solution to your loco development quandry is to move toward a sort of "Eras" system, breaking down locos and rolling stock into roughly when they would most likely fit best together. There may be some overlap, but by and large when one era passes into another there would be about maybe 5 years or so transition period before the previous era's stock is rendered obsolete and is no longer available. As an example, taking your locomotive list, here's how I'd break it down:

Era 1: Birth of Railroads (1830-1845)
0-4-0 Grasshopper (1830, General)
2-4-0 John Bull (1833, Passengers) (Technically, the John Bull was a rather weird 4-2-0 as the outside coupling rods were omitted, but that's getting into pedantry)
4-2-0 Norris (1838, Passengers) (Arguably the first big leap forward, a loco that rendered both previous designs obsolete, but more expensive to buy and run plus surprisingly poor reliability to show that the Norris Bros. were a bit on the shady side and some of their claims of their engine's capabilities were exaggerated or only possible by dangerous practice such as overly high boiler pressure)
Rolling Stock: Mainly 4-wheel vehicles; flat trucks, simple box vans, your existing B&O stagecoach-style double decker coaches.

Era 1.5: Transition I: Coming Of Age (1844-1850)
0-8-0 Mud-Digger (1844, Freight)
4-4-0 Eight-Wheeler (1844, Passenger)
Rolling Stock: Start introducing 8-wheel bogie stock around this time

Era 2: Civil War & Westward Expansion (1850-1875)
4-4-0 American (1853, General/Passenger) (Intro date moved up slightly for less gap, based on construction date of several surviving 4-4-0's like General & William Mason. Design pretty universal by this time, used for all purposes)
2-6-0 Mogul (1864, Freight) (American transitions to more Passenger role around this time)
4-6-0 Ten-Wheeler (1868, General)

Era 2.5: Transition 2: Transcontinental, Maturing Industry (1874-1880's)
2-8-0 Consolidation (1874, Freight) (First true Heavy Freight loco, replace double-heading Moguls. Debatable if you want to move intro date up to 1871 when the first was built or keep it the same for when they became commonplace)
4-4-0 Large American (1875, Passenger) (New suggestion, based on Virginia & Truckee examples. Heavier, more power, slightly more speed)
4-8-0 Twelve-Wheeler/Mastadon (1882, Freight) (Somewhat higher power and notably higher speed than Consolidation, but much higher running cost and lower reliability to represent reaching the limits of locomotive technology)
Rolling Stock: Begin introducing larger cars around this time; 40ft became the standard freight car length, modernized coaches from builders like Jackson & Sharp became the norm, first purpose-built tank cars and caboose started appearing.

Era 3: Age of the Robber Barons (1885-1900)
2-8-0 Consolidation B (1885, Freight) (Based on Railway Empire naming. Power slightly less than Mastadon, but comparable speed and much lower running cost & higher reliability, showing evolution of locomotive design)
4-6-0 Camelback (1886, General) (Although Camelbacks technically dated back to 1877, this was closer to the era when they became commonplace. Though they could be used in passenger service, their main role was mostly freight. Characterized by fairly high speeds and medium-low running costs due to their burning cheaper anthracite coal, but medium-low reliability due to their unusual design; they were unpopular with crews both for the exposed fireman's position and the poor visibility for the driver, and were banned altogether by an Act of Congress in 1921 (except on the Philadelphia & Reading and the Central Railroad of New Jersey) after several incidents of broken coupling rods shooting up through the middle cab floor and skewering the driver alive)
2-6-0 Mogul B (1889, Light General) (Optional suggestion for a modernized Mogul with low power & speed but cheap purchase & operating costs for running branch and feeder lines)
4-4-0 High-Wheeled American (1892, Express Passenger) (First proper express locomotive and final evolution of the American design. High speed, low power, decent tractive effort for good acceleration, thus keeping them relevant for later-game use such as commuter service. First locomotive capable of 80-100 mph after NYC&HRRR No.999)

Era 3.5: Transition 3: Turn-of-the-Century (1898-1905)
4-6-0 High-Wheeled Ten-Wheeler (1898, Passenger) (Greater power than High-Wheeled American at the cost of slightly lower speed. Better suited to handle larger, heavier long-distance expresses. Based on Illinois Central No. 382, aka Casey Jones' last engine)
4-4-2 Atlantic (1901, Express Passenger) (Faster than HW Ten-Wheeler, top speed ~110 mph, but less power and comparable running cost. Best suited to 4-5 coaches/mail cars over flat straight routes, suffers badly with heavy loads and steep hills)
2-6-2 Prairie (1902, General/Medium Freight)
2-8-0 Heavy Consolidation (1907, Heavy Freight) (Final evolution of the Consolidation design)
Rolling Stock: First vestibule passenger coaches introduced in this time, such as those on B&O "Royal Blue" and PRR "Pennsylvania Limited".

Era 4: First World War & Roaring Twenties (1910-1925)
4-6-2 Pacific (1910, Passenger) (Speed comparable to Atlantic, but almost double the power. Effectively replaces HW Ten-Wheelers on long-distance expresses, demoting them to ordinary passenger work)
2-8-2 Mikado (1912, Heavy Freight) (Slightly greater power and markedly greater speed than Heavy Consolidation)
Rolling Stock: First steel passenger coaches introduced around this period; earlier wooden coaches phased out by 1930.

Optional Bonus Locos
B-B B&O GE Electric Locomotive (1895, Experimental) (Built for the Baltimore Belt Line to tow steam-hauled trains through Howard Street Tunnel & Mount Royal Station. Might be characterized by eye-watering running costs, low reliability, average speed & power, but better acceleration than any steamer)
0-4-4 Forney (1886, Light Duty) (Based on tank locos of the New York Elevated Railway. Not very fast & pretty weedy power, but cheap as chips to run! Decent for 3-4 passenger cars over short distances or for transferring freight from industries to the stations for the big trains to pick up)
2-4-2 Columbia (1893, General) (An experimental locomotive named after the World's Columbian Exposition, aka the Chicago World's Fair, where the first was displayed. A few were built for American roads as well as a couple exported to Sweden, but almost immediately outclassed by Atlantics and larger Ten-Wheelers. Gained strange popularity in tycoon games)
0-8-0 Camel (1853, Freight) (Ross Winans' improvement on the Mud-Digger, doing away with the gear drive in favor of direct connecting rods. Ancestor of the later Camelbacks but with the driver set atop the boiler. More or less standard B&O heavy freight loco until after the Civil War. Very slow, but ridiculously high power for the era.
Interurban Electric Railcars (1905, Passenger) (The first electric interurban light railroads began popping up around the Turn-of-the-Century. Cheaper to operate than steam-hauled passenger trains, little independent operations popped up all over the US from Texas to Canada, reaching their peak in the 1920's before seeing a sharp decline in the 1960's due to rising car use and hostile corporate shenanigans. For mainline examples, the PRR MP54 EMU's first entered service in 1908 with the last being retires in 1981)

That's my rough suggestion for a progression tree. The dates may need to be fudged a bit for gameplay purposes, but I reckon this more or less represents the evolution of American steam locomotives up to the 1920's pretty succinctly. I realize there's a fair few models here that weren't on your original list, and I totally understand if the increased roster isn't to your liking. I merely meant this as a suggestion to be taken, modded, or left as you see fit.

Regarding the question of narrow gauge, I'm a bit on the fence about it myself honestly. Given the limitations of OTTD I'm not sure there would be all that much benefit to it; aside from cost, the main bonus to narrow gauge is smaller space and tighter curves, a non-issue in OTTD. From what I've seen from using Timberwolf's UK Trains pack the difference is mostly cost and aesthetics. This is doubly so with niche locos like the Shay; while super neat designs, their slow speed mostly make them next to useless in games where goods are time-sensitive. As such I could not really recommend pursuing a Shay except as a personal fancy and Easter Egg.
Bad_Brett
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Bad_Brett »

Wow, just ...wow. What an incredible post! I have to save it so it doesn't get lost.

Perhaps I should do a spreadsheet... It would be great if you wanted to have a look at it and give suggestions to the different values. :)

I know that certain introduction dates are historically accurate, but I kind of want to follow the pattern Passenger->Freight->General->Passenger->Freight->General. Of course, I guess that if I could make the engines different enough, I could introduce several freight engines in a short span of time, i.e:

Heavy Consolidation: Cheap, reliable, low running cost, long vehicle life (due to having evolved over many years)
Mikado: Expensive, high running cost, short vehicle life (due to being a new model)

Do you have any examples of a "high-wheeled" American/Ten-Wheeler?

One thing that confuses me is the 4-6-0 Camelback. I've seen it being used as a freight engine in other games, but according to my research, this specific wheel configuration was mostly use for passenger service, due to:

1. Big drivers and 4-wheel leading truck (= high speed)
2. Culm burning produced very little smoke

It feels like I'm missing something here...
Micheleromeo121
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Micheleromeo121 »

I ran out of ideas after reading sirrliv's post honestly, at this point my only suggestions are streamlined engines of the 1930s-1940s like the new York central's Dreyfus Hudson or the Hiawatha and the Chesapeake & Ohio streamlined Hudson. Even though I think they deserve to be added in a future update or maybe a separate "add-on" NewGRF.

I was also beginning to think about other types of industries such as steel mills, oil wells, wheat/corn farms, or additional station tiles that could work like the ISR set
And how they would look like.
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sirrliv
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by sirrliv »

Bad_Brett

I'm honored that you took such a fancy to my suggestion. Of course I'd be happy to advise if you so wish. I may be only an amateur historian, but as I said I've been studying railroad history pretty much all my life and have seen how it's been made to work in numerous tycoon games.

I fully understand your point about wanting a steady progression and for the most part that may be possible. There are just certain points where that progression may get a bit muddy, either by multiple models of locomotive being introduced that fulfill similar or overlapping roles, such as the Mastadon and the Consolidation B (in fairness, the Mastadon was generally not a very long-lived type, often suffering from poor steaming due to its oversized boiler pushing the limits of smaller wood-burning fireboxes) or older designs sticking around to fill new roles; the original Mogul was a surprisingly long-lived type, transitioning well from its original role as main freight hauler to medium freight loco after the first Consolidations came along, often ending as light duty and shunting engines as newer bigger Moguls came out in the 1890's to take over the medium freight work.

You're on the right track with your comparison between the Heavy Consolidation and the Mikado. There may be some cases where it mainly comes down to player choice; one loco may be better in some ways than another, but the other can still do the job well enough. A High-Wheeled Ten-Wheeler may have more power thus better handling longer fast passenger trains, but the player may decide they value higher top speed more and choose a High-Wheeled American instead.

Speaking of, I mentioned a couple of examples in my description, but just to make them clear:
High-Wheeled American example: New York Central & Hudson River Railroad No.999 (Original condition): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_ ... ad_No._999 Supposedly the first steam locomotive to exceed 100 mph, though this claim is hotly disputed.
Alternative, more common example: Pennsylvania Railroad D16 Class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylva ... _class_D16 Not quite as high stepping as the 999, but a mainstay of Pennsy passenger work well into the 20th Century.
High-Wheeled Ten-Wheeler example: Illinois Central No. 382: https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Illi ... al_No._382 Typical of the type, this particular engine was made famous by her driver, Casey Jones, on his final run into legend.

Regarding the Camelback quandry, you're right about the 4-6-0 Camelbacks seeing use in passenger service, notably with 3 being involved in the tragic Bryn Athyn Disaster of 1921 (two colliding after a third passed). However, overall I would classify Camelbacks as more General in purpose; their main role has always been freight work, in the case of the 4-6-0's their larger wheels making them more suitable for both fast freight and commuter passenger working. Indeed, referencing Bryn Athyn again, one of the three trains involved was a milk train with no passengers at all. It is also true that their culm burning produced little smoke, but my own research has claimed that the main reason for their design was because anthracite culm was considered difficult to use as it required a (for the time) colossal combustion space to burn properly, hence the oversized Wooten firebox that necessitated the Camelback arrangement. As a result, Anthracite was largely cheaper than the more common bituminous coal because it was less desirable for railroad use; steamships and factories loved it, but early on at least only specialized locomotives could use it. That said, it's also true that some railroads, particularly later into the 1920's-30's invested more into developing anthracite burning locomotives; the Lackawanna famously touted their mascot Phoebe Snow in her white dress spotless by traveling on "The Road of Anthracite". But in the era of the Camelbacks, it was mostly valued for its longer, hotter combustion more than its clean smokeless exhaust.
Bad_Brett
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Bad_Brett »

sirrliv wrote: 28 Sep 2021 16:20 such as the Mastadon and the Consolidation B (in fairness, the Mastadon was generally not a very long-lived type, often suffering from poor steaming due to its oversized boiler pushing the limits of smaller wood-burning fireboxes)
The Twelve-Wheeler (I've learned that the nickname Mastodon is actually mistakenly referred for the 4-8-0 wheel arrangement) is one of a few engines that I've added just to make things more intersting. Same goes with the Mud-Digger, or the Grasshopper that wasn't used in the west at all. I just think that, while not historicially accurate, it would be more fun to have great variety of engines. :)

I think
sirrliv wrote: 28 Sep 2021 16:20 the original Mogul was a surprisingly long-lived type, transitioning well from its original role as main freight hauler to medium freight loco after the first Consolidations came along, often ending as light duty and shunting engines as newer bigger Moguls came out in the 1890's to take over the medium freight work.
Then we'll give it a really long vehicle life. :)
Micheleromeo121 wrote: 27 Sep 2021 11:46 However, overall I would classify Camelbacks as more General in purpose;
Well I guess that makes sense, since the standard Ten-Wheelers were commonly used for fast freight as well.
sirrliv wrote: 26 Sep 2021 23:24 Regarding the question of narrow gauge, I'm a bit on the fence about it myself honestly. Given the limitations of OTTD I'm not sure there would be all that much benefit to it; aside from cost, the main bonus to narrow gauge is smaller space and tighter curves, a non-issue in OTTD. From what I've seen from using Timberwolf's UK Trains pack the difference is mostly cost and aesthetics. This is doubly so with niche locos like the Shay; while super neat designs, their slow speed mostly make them next to useless in games where goods are time-sensitive. As such I could not really recommend pursuing a Shay except as a personal fancy and Easter Egg.
From your earlier post. I think that this is one of those cases where I'm going to be historically inaccurate. I have the same issues with cable cars. I mean, playing with vehicles travelling at 10 mph is not fun. So my idea is to triple that. 30 mph is still really slow. I think that an engine or a tram travelling at 30 mph with infinite power and tractive effort could be a fun addition.
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Micheleromeo121 »

sirrliv wrote: 28 Sep 2021 16:20 Speaking of, I mentioned a couple of examples in my description, but just to make them clear:
High-Wheeled American example: New York Central & Hudson River Railroad No.999 (Original condition): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_ ... ad_No._999 Supposedly the first steam locomotive to exceed 100 mph, though this claim is hotly disputed.
Alternative, more common example: Pennsylvania Railroad D16 Class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylva ... _class_D16 Not quite as high stepping as the 999, but a mainstay of Pennsy passenger work well into the 20th Century.
High-Wheeled Ten-Wheeler example: Illinois Central No. 382: https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Illi ... al_No._382 Typical of the type, this particular engine was made famous by her driver, Casey Jones, on his final run into legend.

I really like n.999's design, its probably my favorite "American" 4-4-0 design. I think it would be a nice addition to Gold Rush :mrgreen:
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Bad_Brett »

I could need some help with the engine sizes... I know it won't be perfect, and it might be necessary to decrease the size of some of the bigger engines to be able to fit them into the game. Also, some of the older engines will be a bit bigger, for gameplay reasons. With that said... does it look okay, or does anything seem off? :)
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Micheleromeo121 »

Bad_Brett wrote: 05 Oct 2021 04:09 I could need some help with the engine sizes... I know it won't be perfect, and it might be necessary to decrease the size of some of the bigger engines to be able to fit them into the game. Also, some of the older engines will be a bit bigger, for gameplay reasons. With that said... does it look okay, or does anything seem off? :)

SizeComparison.png

THEY LOOK PERFECT! :bow: :bow:
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Bad_Brett »

A minor update on some of the more modern steam engines. I think the 4-4-0 High-Wheeled American was a great suggestion, because it kind of fills the gap between the older looking models and the newer looking models.
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Micheleromeo121
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Micheleromeo121 »

Great job as always, I also hope we're getting closer to a release for OpenTTD :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Bad_Brett »

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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Killer 11 »

Really good work, playing with this stuff will be a lot of fun.
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Thrillville109 »

I remember seeing this mod lord knows how long ago. I can't wait until it comes out!
I'd be making Locomotion Expanded if I didn't despise using WALLY.
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by igali »

Hello,

I'm starter.
I not found the download link.
How can download this? :roll:
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by kamnet »

igali wrote: 27 Sep 2022 17:38 Hello,

I'm starter.
I not found the download link.
How can download this? :roll:
There is no download yet, it's still in development.
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Re: Gold Rush [32 bpp mod]

Post by Nick_B »

I'm glad to see this graphics set is still in development! I haven't been following progress for a while and saw your website Brett is kinda dead. After searching around a bit I saw this forum post and I was so happy to see your still at it. I have to say, everything looks amazing and I think your scaling is fine too. Heck, NARS Addon has the Big Boy and other locos which are like 1.5 - 2 tiles long anyway, so I don't think there is any need to for rescaling.

Keep up the fantastic work. I think we all are looking forward to the release of the 1st American 32 bit graphics set.
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