JGR's Patch Pack

[Taschi]

I don't know why it now defaults to path signals upon opening the game

That was done because the other signal types can be replaced with path signals in most situations, are highly unintuitive and a high number of new users were confused by them.

If you are capable of understanding how the other signal types actually work, you are also capable of opening the settings and re-enabling them.

[Redirect Left]

If you are capable of understanding how the other signal types actually work, you are also capable of opening the settings and re-enabling them.

This i did (literally immediately, this is probably the most irritating change to vanilla so far in my 12+ years of playing it), however i cannot locate any setting that basically is, use whichever signal was selected at time of A: save game you loaded, or B: the game overall before exiting if its not plausible to store that info into the save game for A.

Irrelevant tangent you can skip reading if you'd like, all 'the point' is above this; I use block signals as my normal running track, and then use path signals whenever a junction or station comes up. To me this looks much better, and is slightly more 'realistic', which I know is never the aim of OTTD or any patch packs, however it is 'best i can do' sort of deal. Which is why it defaulting back to path signals upon exit is generally irritating for my use case, and from the screenshot threads it seems somewhat clear I'm not alone in that usage of signals. Yes, path signals are easier for new people, but old people also exist. Path signals are IMO somewhat lazy for general usage, and doesn't really encourage getting to know the intricacies of signalling for the game at large. For my usage, I also never use entry or exit signals, nor combis. This is just because I was the aforementioned lazy early on, and never learnt them, perhaps they're amazing. It'd be quite nice if you can disable them from showing too, without also removing block signal, if anything.

[Taschi]

Gameplay-wise, there is never a situation where a block signal have any benefits over path signals. That is why path signals are, and should be, the default selection.

[ino]

Gameplay-wise, there is never a situation where a block signal have any benefits over path signals. That is why path signals are, and should be, the default selection.

There actually is. Path signal cannot do rail_firstred_twoway_eol like block signal can. Not to say your overall argument isn't valid, but the "never a situation" bit is wrong.

[Taschi]

rail_firstred_twoway_eol

wat?

[ino]

rail_firstred_twoway_eol

wat?

Oh my.

Here you go: https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Two-way_end_of_line It's the basis of many advanced signalling pattern used in openttdcoop.

[jfs]

Path signals contain all the tools required to make safe, deadlock-free rail networks that are not inefficient. Building computers using the block/pre signals are hyper-optimizations that aren't necessary for making deadlock-free systems. The mechanic of rail_firstred_twoway_eol is a tool used to enable some of the computer-construction, and is not necessary to make safe, deadlock-free rail networks that are not inefficient.
And please don't confuse "not inefficient" with "hyper-optimized".

[Eddi]

Path signal cannot do rail_firstred_twoway_eol like block signal can.

No sane player should ever use that setting.

[wallyweb]

Obviously some players prefer block signals as default while others prefer path signals. Surely a simple switch to set and save one or the other as default would be possible, no? We see several similar default settings for other features.

[Captain Rand]

...... this is probably the most irritating change to vanilla so far .....

One of them. Two others are replacing the (very easy to hit) big button to center on a vehicle with a tiny one, and CTRL-click to follow the vehicle with a double click on that tiny button. Irritating.

.... I use block signals as my normal running track, and then use path signals whenever a junction or station comes up.
.....Which is why it defaulting back to path signals upon exit is generally irritating for my use case....
...... it seems somewhat clear I'm not alone in that usage of signals.

You're not alone. I use exactly the same system. It just makes more sense to me.

Gameplay-wise, there is never a situation where a block signal have any benefits over path signals.

Oh yes there is. Priority Merges Using Extra Track.
https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Community/J ... ty%20Merge
It wouldn't work if you used path signals instead.

...... That is why path signals are, and should be, the default selection.

You're entitled to your opinion.

.....changing something that wasn't really broken.

Indeed.

Pete.

[2TallTyler]

The signal menu only defaults to a path signal when starting OpenTTD. Otherwise, it remembers the last signal you selected.

My proposed solution is for the game to remember the last signal even after you close OpenTTD, by writing it into the config file. But someone needs to write the code and submit a PR to make this happen.

EDIT: Here's a Pull Request that does just that.

[sevenfm]

Would it be possible to allow vehicles turn around on road crossings and in drive-through bus stops (they can turn around in terminal drive through bus stops anyway)? That would make managing town transport flow much more convenient without house destruction.
Also thank you for public roads patch, it adds so much to my early starts!

[Eddi]

that sounds like a horrible idea, where vehicles turn around in the least useful places...

[sevenfm]

Horrible is the way it works now, when you need to send vehicle to a dead end somewhere far away or make unneeded loops or build stupid road directions from straight road to side house.
Anyway if it ever gets implemented as option, you don't have to use it.

[Redirect Left]

Would it be possible to allow vehicles turn around on road crossings and in drive-through bus stops (they can turn around in terminal drive through bus stops anyway)? That would make managing town transport flow much more convenient without house destruction.
Also thank you for public roads patch, it adds so much to my early starts!

I can if anything see that actually causing the flow to be even worse in some situations. I generally just knock a nearby square into a turning point, much as is done in the real world where its useful, and they can turn around in the off-road.

[sevenfm]

I can if anything see that actually causing the flow to be even worse in some situations. I generally just knock a nearby square into a turning point, much as is done in the real world where its useful, and they can turn around in the off-road.

Sorry but your picture has nothing to real towns in the game. There is no problem to organize turn around in the open field. The issue I addressed is related to tightly built towns where you don't want to demolish buildings but instead allow quick turn arounds on road crossings like it happens in real cities, instead of moving vehicle several tiles farther and either demolish houses or make silly looking road appendix to the side.

[Eddi]

i don't know any place that allows turning around on crossings...

and by "horrible" i mean that, maybe it helps you on one particular place, but there are 100 others on the map where it wouldn't, and you can't pick on a per-crossing basis.

anyway, with current game mechanics you can completely prevent vehicles from going on a (straight) piece of road with the one-way tool. if you put one of those behind the station, the vehicles will turn around, but the town can still grow along that road.

[sevenfm]

i don't know any place that allows turning around on crossings...

I live in a big city where buses were always turning around on crossings when needed as far as I remember, nobody every seen it as any problem.

and by "horrible" i mean that, maybe it helps you on one particular place, but there are 100 others on the map where it wouldn't, and you can't pick on a per-crossing basis.

I don't get what's the problem here. If you don't need it on a particular crossing, just don't use it, your buses will move where they need.

anyway, with current game mechanics you can completely prevent vehicles from going on a (straight) piece of road with the one-way tool. if you put one of those behind the station, the vehicles will turn around, but the town can still grow along that road.

So, artificial weird looking solution that interrupts the normal traffic flow, instead of realistic and convenient option.
Also your solution requires a free road tile after the station which is not always the case if you need to place road stop just before the crossing.

[Redirect Left]

I can if anything see that actually causing the flow to be even worse in some situations. I generally just knock a nearby square into a turning point, much as is done in the real world where its useful, and they can turn around in the off-road.

Sorry but your picture has nothing to real towns in the game.

Yes, it's almost like I made a quick demonstration image in a random new game.
I've never personally seen a bus randomly turn around in the middle of a road after a bus stop, unless the stop was in fact a proper bus station, which at least here is a proper built building, or at worse, a roundabout with a lot of flags stuck into the pavement (nostalgia to my hometown there, hurray for Holmfirth).
Anyway, in the game, if you have a load of buses, and some of them are going to lay down then keep going forward, and some are going to lay down and do a U-turn, the buses behind will be stuck waiting for the other one to do its u-turn, hence may cause bigger issues than just making a short run off road to turn around in.

[Taschi]

The issue I addressed is related to tightly built towns where you don't want to demolish buildings but instead allow quick turn arounds on road crossings like it happens in real cities, instead of moving vehicle several tiles farther and either demolish houses or make silly looking road appendix to the side.

I live in a real city and buses sure do not just turn around on road crossings, mostly for the reason that it is not quick, not safe, and not even actually possible on most crossings. They either take a turn around a block, or have a dedicated loop.