Subsidy question.

[mauried]

Is there some preset criteria needed before subsidies are offered.
Ive started playing on a long thin map where the towns are 100 - 200 squares apart, and the industries are slightly closer, but no subsidies are offered and Ive been playing this map now for around 15 years.
On smaller maps where the towns are much closer, the subsidies are far more frequent.
Tnx.

[Eddi]

Code: Select all

src/subsidy_base.h:static const uint SUBSIDY_MAX_DISTANCE         =  70; ///< Max. length of subsidised route (DistanceManhattan)

pretty self-explanatory if you ask me.

[jfs]

If you have Cargo Distribution enabled, subsidies also don't generate.

[2TallTyler]

I've considered making a PR to increase the maximum subsidy distance (since the 70 tiles is almost certainly intended for original 256x256 maps with vanilla industries, while modern maps often have less dense towns and industries and more industry types), but got stuck on whether to scale by map size or town/industry density. Also, the time offered to complete each subsidy would have to be increased to compensate for the longer distance.

[mauried]

Thanks all.
I suspected a range limit was in place but wasnt sure whether it was hard coded or a hidden setting somewhere.

[kamnet]

I've considered making a PR to increase the maximum subsidy distance (since the 70 tiles is almost certainly intended for original 256x256 maps with vanilla industries, while modern maps often have less dense towns and industries and more industry types), but got stuck on whether to scale by map size or town/industry density. Also, the time offered to complete each subsidy would have to be increased to compensate for the longer distance.

Any reason not to make this configurable by the player?

[Eddi]

plenty of reasons... including "we already have too many settings" and "should this automatically scale with map size"

besides that, the whole subsidy system could use a deep overhaul

[_dp_]

besides that, the whole subsidy system could use a deep overhaul

Could use a deep wipe and let GS handle that stuff in peace

[Taschi]

Could use a deep wipe and let GS handle that stuff in peace

Not everybody uses a gamescript, though - in fact, I'd wager most people don't.

[_dp_]

Not everybody uses a gamescript, though - in fact, I'd wager most people don't.

Same can be said about subsidies

[Eddi]

... or game settings...

[Taschi]

You're not wrong - but if subsidies are an integral feature of the game, they should work regardless of the world generation settings (at least the part of the world generation settings that are visible to even the most casual user on the "New Game" screen), and if subsidies are *not* an integral feature of the game, then who cares?

[ufiby]

Adding to the settings is not the best option. Currently, there are too many settings in the game, it makes no sense to configure them. The subsidy should automatically determine the number of cities and industrial facilities based on the corresponding map sizes.

2022-01-15_17-11-14.png (1.64 KiB) Viewed 6279 times

Players choose the most specific numbers to get a subsidy - it's a bit strange. I would advise: this setting should be removed from the game. The subsidy is provided randomly by multipliers (min x1.5, max x4) and duration (min 1 year, max 5 years)

[2TallTyler]

We do have configurable subsidy duration now, but I'm still interested to see more expansion of the feature, preferably without expansion of settings. Enabling subsidies with cargodist is a possibility (the original reason for disabling it seemed to be fear of player confusion regarding cargo traveling over a subsidized route and not receiving the subsidy), as are proposals to change the mechanic entirely.

[kamnet]

Adding to the settings is not the best option. Currently, there are too many settings in the game, it makes no sense to configure them. The subsidy should automatically determine the number of cities and industrial facilities based on the corresponding map sizes.

Players choose the most specific numbers to get a subsidy - it's a bit strange. I would advise: this setting should be removed from the game. The subsidy is provided randomly by multipliers (min x1.5, max x4) and duration (min 1 year, max 5 years)

This seems reasonable to me. Leave it as an expert setting.

[mauried]

The current subsidy system is Ok as it is , especially if its a major effort to fix it .
Just not knowing about the 70 square limit for players is the problem.
A simple note in the subsidy settings or in an on screen message indicating the 70 square limit is really all thats needed.

[Eddi]

the complicated part is, as long as the whole game balance is totally off, there's not really much you can do with the subsidy system that would in any way "fix" it

as for the note about maximum distance, that is probably best put into the wiki. it doesn't make much sense to put it into the description of unrelated settings.

[mauried]

When theres a restriction or limit in the game which isnt documented its helpful if the game informs the players of the restriction if the players can then work around the restriction.
eg some planes have a maximum range limit which the game informs the player of when they try to set up orders which are too far apart.
For subsidies, the game could simply provide a message that there is a subsidy available between 2 towns or industries , but its not implementable due to the 70 range limit.
This would allow players to found towns or fund industries which were closer together to increase the chances of viable subsidies becoming available.
I assume here that player founded towns or funded industries would be available for subsidies if they were close enough.

[odisseus]

I'd argue for keeping the subsidy system as it is.

The subsidies are clearly intended for new players who struggle to earn money otherwise. The experienced players usually don't bother with subsidies, because building a longer route usually brings more profit (moreover, these profits don't expire).

On the other hand, building long routes is risky for beginners, as they are prone to common mistakes: miscalculating how much track they can afford, sending cargo to a wrong industry etc. The subsidy gives the beginner a chance to earn some decent profit, while limiting the sunk cost in case he messes up.

[ufiby]

Adding to the settings is not the best option. Currently, there are too many settings in the game, it makes no sense to configure them. The subsidy should automatically determine the number of cities and industrial facilities based on the corresponding map sizes.

Players choose the most specific numbers to get a subsidy - it's a bit strange. I would advise: this setting should be removed from the game. The subsidy is provided randomly by multipliers (min x1.5, max x4) and duration (min 1 year, max 5 years)

This seems reasonable to me. Leave it as an expert setting.

So these settings remain unchanged. I wouldn't mind. If the selected number is zero, it means that it is set randomly.