Subsidy question.

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mauried
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Subsidy question.

Post by mauried »

Is there some preset criteria needed before subsidies are offered.
Ive started playing on a long thin map where the towns are 100 - 200 squares apart, and the industries are slightly closer, but no subsidies are offered and Ive been playing this map now for around 15 years.
On smaller maps where the towns are much closer, the subsidies are far more frequent.
Tnx.
Eddi
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by Eddi »

Code: Select all

src/subsidy_base.h:static const uint SUBSIDY_MAX_DISTANCE         =  70; ///< Max. length of subsidised route (DistanceManhattan)
pretty self-explanatory if you ask me.
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jfs
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by jfs »

If you have Cargo Distribution enabled, subsidies also don't generate.
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2TallTyler
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by 2TallTyler »

I've considered making a PR to increase the maximum subsidy distance (since the 70 tiles is almost certainly intended for original 256x256 maps with vanilla industries, while modern maps often have less dense towns and industries and more industry types), but got stuck on whether to scale by map size or town/industry density. Also, the time offered to complete each subsidy would have to be increased to compensate for the longer distance.
mauried
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by mauried »

Thanks all.
I suspected a range limit was in place but wasnt sure whether it was hard coded or a hidden setting somewhere.
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kamnet
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by kamnet »

2TallTyler wrote: 14 Jan 2022 13:55 I've considered making a PR to increase the maximum subsidy distance (since the 70 tiles is almost certainly intended for original 256x256 maps with vanilla industries, while modern maps often have less dense towns and industries and more industry types), but got stuck on whether to scale by map size or town/industry density. Also, the time offered to complete each subsidy would have to be increased to compensate for the longer distance.
Any reason not to make this configurable by the player?
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by Eddi »

plenty of reasons... including "we already have too many settings" and "should this automatically scale with map size"

besides that, the whole subsidy system could use a deep overhaul
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by _dp_ »

Eddi wrote: 15 Jan 2022 11:16 besides that, the whole subsidy system could use a deep overhaul
Could use a deep wipe and let GS handle that stuff in peace :P
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by Taschi »

_dp_ wrote: 15 Jan 2022 12:30 Could use a deep wipe and let GS handle that stuff in peace :P
Not everybody uses a gamescript, though - in fact, I'd wager most people don't.
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by _dp_ »

Taschi wrote: 15 Jan 2022 12:47 Not everybody uses a gamescript, though - in fact, I'd wager most people don't.
Same can be said about subsidies :P
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by Eddi »

... or game settings... :p
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Taschi
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by Taschi »

You're not wrong - but if subsidies are an integral feature of the game, they should work regardless of the world generation settings (at least the part of the world generation settings that are visible to even the most casual user on the "New Game" screen), and if subsidies are *not* an integral feature of the game, then who cares?
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by ufiby »

Adding to the settings is not the best option. Currently, there are too many settings in the game, it makes no sense to configure them. The subsidy should automatically determine the number of cities and industrial facilities based on the corresponding map sizes.
2022-01-15_17-11-14.png
2022-01-15_17-11-14.png (1.64 KiB) Viewed 344 times
Players choose the most specific numbers to get a subsidy - it's a bit strange. I would advise: this setting should be removed from the game. The subsidy is provided randomly by multipliers (min x1.5, max x4) and duration (min 1 year, max 5 years)
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by 2TallTyler »

We do have configurable subsidy duration now, but I'm still interested to see more expansion of the feature, preferably without expansion of settings. Enabling subsidies with cargodist is a possibility (the original reason for disabling it seemed to be fear of player confusion regarding cargo traveling over a subsidized route and not receiving the subsidy), as are proposals to change the mechanic entirely.
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kamnet
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by kamnet »

ufiby wrote: 15 Jan 2022 14:22 Adding to the settings is not the best option. Currently, there are too many settings in the game, it makes no sense to configure them. The subsidy should automatically determine the number of cities and industrial facilities based on the corresponding map sizes.
Image
Players choose the most specific numbers to get a subsidy - it's a bit strange. I would advise: this setting should be removed from the game. The subsidy is provided randomly by multipliers (min x1.5, max x4) and duration (min 1 year, max 5 years)
This seems reasonable to me. Leave it as an expert setting.
mauried
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by mauried »

The current subsidy system is Ok as it is , especially if its a major effort to fix it .
Just not knowing about the 70 square limit for players is the problem.
A simple note in the subsidy settings or in an on screen message indicating the 70 square limit is really all thats needed.
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by Eddi »

the complicated part is, as long as the whole game balance is totally off, there's not really much you can do with the subsidy system that would in any way "fix" it

as for the note about maximum distance, that is probably best put into the wiki. it doesn't make much sense to put it into the description of unrelated settings.
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mauried
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by mauried »

When theres a restriction or limit in the game which isnt documented its helpful if the game informs the players of the restriction if the players can then work around the restriction.
eg some planes have a maximum range limit which the game informs the player of when they try to set up orders which are too far apart.
For subsidies, the game could simply provide a message that there is a subsidy available between 2 towns or industries , but its not implementable due to the 70 range limit.
This would allow players to found towns or fund industries which were closer together to increase the chances of viable subsidies becoming available.
I assume here that player founded towns or funded industries would be available for subsidies if they were close enough.
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odisseus
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by odisseus »

I'd argue for keeping the subsidy system as it is.

The subsidies are clearly intended for new players who struggle to earn money otherwise. The experienced players usually don't bother with subsidies, because building a longer route usually brings more profit (moreover, these profits don't expire).

On the other hand, building long routes is risky for beginners, as they are prone to common mistakes: miscalculating how much track they can afford, sending cargo to a wrong industry etc. The subsidy gives the beginner a chance to earn some decent profit, while limiting the sunk cost in case he messes up.
ufiby
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Re: Subsidy question.

Post by ufiby »

kamnet wrote: 16 Jan 2022 18:48
ufiby wrote: 15 Jan 2022 14:22 Adding to the settings is not the best option. Currently, there are too many settings in the game, it makes no sense to configure them. The subsidy should automatically determine the number of cities and industrial facilities based on the corresponding map sizes.
Image
Players choose the most specific numbers to get a subsidy - it's a bit strange. I would advise: this setting should be removed from the game. The subsidy is provided randomly by multipliers (min x1.5, max x4) and duration (min 1 year, max 5 years)
This seems reasonable to me. Leave it as an expert setting.
So these settings remain unchanged. I wouldn't mind. If the selected number is zero, it means that it is set randomly.
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