NotRoadTypes

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Kruemelchen
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Kruemelchen » 04 May 2018 21:34

False alarm then :lol:

(which means I can continue the bad habit ... )

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by acs121 » 04 May 2018 22:29

SimYouLater wrote:
Kruemelchen wrote: But I think compatibility for road types has to work a little bit different from compatibility for rail types: While a train can hardly run on tracks with different gauges, so a normal-gauge train needs to be refitted to a broad-gauge train etc., except the tracks are dual-gauge, a car on the other hand can run on any road it is being designed for. In other words: not the road decides which cars can run on it, but the car decides which road it can run on.

So ... a solution would probably be to let road vehicles be of more than one type.
Or ... have special (or empty) road types meant to set compatibilities. (might be the easiest solution?)
Or ... let vehicles (of road type B) run on a road type A when this road type A has a compatibility for vehicles of the road type B. Right now, it is the other way round...

Or am I the one thinking wrongly? ?(
Cars are designed for roads, it makes sense that the vehicles define the compatible road types. Unfortunately, that would mean modifying existing RV sets to work with NRT.
In this case, no other vehicle except the amphibious car from SUV can run on waterways. There's no such vehicle in another set that are even able to run on Kruemelchen's waterways as roadtypes. Note that all RV sets i used, even the oldest ones (like CargoSet) still work properly with NRT : the buses / trucks are able to run on ROAD, ELRD and all other compatible roadtypes such as supermop's Unspooled roadtypes. Your roadtype simply has to indicate it's compatibility, that's how railtypes work too :wink:

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by kamnet » 04 May 2018 23:17

No, I've not looked over any documentation or tried myself, I'm just curious though...

1) Is it possible for a road type to become the default road, but not be ROAD/ELRD? Say for example I wanted a new default road which intentionally has no vehicles compatible with it, in order to allow town growth but force players to upgrade the road if they want them to be usable.

2) It is possible for AI to upgrade roads in order to use a compatible vehicle?

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by acs121 » 05 May 2018 21:11

kamnet wrote:No, I've not looked over any documentation or tried myself, I'm just curious though...

1) Is it possible for a road type to become the default road, but not be ROAD/ELRD? Say for example I wanted a new default road which intentionally has no vehicles compatible with it, in order to allow town growth but force players to upgrade the road if they want them to be usable.

2) It is possible for AI to upgrade roads in order to use a compatible vehicle?
For the 1 : look at supermop's Unspooled GRF, he did this thing somewhat : replace ROAD with another roadtype.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by PikkaBird » 05 May 2018 21:32

kamnet wrote:2) It is possible for AI to upgrade roads in order to use a compatible vehicle?
Current AIs have no understanding of road types. Once the NoAI API and individual AIs are updated, sure.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by KeldorKatarn » 07 May 2018 22:35

I downloaded the binary to play around with it, it reports the base set missing 5 sprites? Is there an updated baseset somewhere?

Also.. might I suggest you pick one more bit from somewhere to increase the number of types to 32? I can already see in all the threads about road types that people are already running into the limit.
I'm thinking about putting this into my patchpack already after all and this is the first change I'll make, just like with rail types. Cosidering that these sets basically double their numbers since they offer every road in electrified version also, the limit for roads is pretty quickly reached. At LEAST for roads. Tram types COULD be fine still, but I'd bump both if I were you. More future proof that way. 31 should be good for a while, 15 is just very low. People will eventually come out with several types of asphalt roads for different road speeds and then people want country and dirt roads on top of that. I don'T even want to imagine what happens when people go and do what they're currently planning and add waterways or subway hacks or some stuff like that. In your TODO list I can see plans for overhead suspended rail and such stuff. All that is stuff people would want to use on top of the regular asphalt and dirty stuff. No way that can be done with 15 slots.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Wolf01 » 10 May 2018 20:40

KeldorKatarn wrote:Cosidering that these sets basically double their numbers since they offer every road in electrified version also, the limit for roads is pretty quickly reached.
You can have 14 normal roads and 1 electrified.

I was thinking about having the cap limit shared with tram, so you can have 30 types, 1 road and 29 trams or 29 roads and 1 tram... I don't think there is a real need to have 15 different trams.
But this is just one of my ponies, I need to plan it carefully talking with the others.

Anyway, if we could make it to the next step (ButGroundTypes) the need of eyecandy roadypes will drop significantly, and you will only have roadtypes which define the behaviour instead of just another appearance

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by kamnet » 10 May 2018 23:40

Wolf01 wrote: I don't think there is a real need to have 15 different trams.
Non-electrified tramway
Electrified tramway
Suspended monorail / cable car / etc.
Pipes / Electrical wire infrastructure
Amphibious roadways
Kerb-guided bus lanes
Lightrail / interurban rail
Metro subways as roads

There's 11 out of 15 tram slots taken up. :)
Last edited by kamnet on 11 May 2018 01:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by acs121 » 11 May 2018 00:23

I think 48 road and tram types (24 + 24) is good enough.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Captain Rand » 11 May 2018 00:42

kamnet wrote:
Non-electrified tramway
Electrified tramway
Suspended monorail / cable car / etc.
Pipes / Electrical wire infrastructure
Amphibious roadways
Kerb-guided bus lanes
Lightrail / interurban rail
Metro subways as roads
I would remove the guided busway from this list and make it a Roadtype. I've read somewhere that some guided busways can share electrified tramlines and we wouldn't be able to mix trams with guided busses if it was a Tramtype.
Also, if you overlaid a (Tramtype) guided busway over normal road than standard RV's would still be able to use it, which obviously is not wanted.

Are Trolleybusses being classed as a Roadtype or Tramtype? I've read about guided trolleybusses too (and personally would class them as a Tramtype).

However, there are at least two different types of cable cars - the suspended type, and San Fransisco style trolleys.
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by KeldorKatarn » 11 May 2018 01:31

acs121 wrote:I think 48 road and tram types (24 + 24) is good enough.
24 doesn't exist as a number when you calculate in bits. if you increase 16 your end up with 32. And I think 32 will be good enough for both for now.
And I really don't think people should calculate with any future ground type idea. I mean when will THAT be ready then. Five years from now? This needs to work properly NOW without forcing players to pick and choose again when they'd like to use more. THere's enough bits on the map to use. You only need 2 more to give both a 32 (or 31) option. Once this goes into trunk people will create road types like nuts. Subway, wire, pipeline waterways, whatever. Some people might even try and simulate foot traffic with it or motorcycles or whatever.

Seeing how even NOW you can't load unspooled, docklands and country roads without hitting the limit, it clearly shows that the limit is too low.
There's only three newGRFs around now and you already can't use them all.

Also I highly doubt that people see country roads and such as "eye candy". seeing how the creators intend those to be only accessible for certain vehicles, how stone or cobble road in a town could be blocked for traffic to simulate a shopping street, how some roads might be bus only, how some roads might be heavy truck only or whatever... just eye candy doesn't cut it there. If this is done, it should provide the flexibility so creators can really use this feature. People will 100% load unspooled and docklands at first. Docklands already for the CHIPS and ISR stuff and unspooled or something similar for dirt road, asphalt and highway. and you already can't load those. how do you intend for other creators to start making these if they know no player can load them anyway? 15 is not enough.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Kruemelchen » 11 May 2018 01:40

kamnet wrote:There's 11 out of 15 tram slots taken up. :)
You are mixing up road and tram types, though :wink:

There already are 15 + 15 slots available

I think personally I could live with road + tram types = 30 types, others may not :)

Of course GRF authors can work around the limit by hiding types behind parameters (like is done in unspooled), or make them alter their appearance by year or town zone — and hopefully some time by drawing different decorations, as well.

I think it would rather be awesome if road / tram types could perform checks of nearby tiles like NewObjects and change appearance accordingly, as well. Though automations can drive one nuts at times :lol:

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by KeldorKatarn » 11 May 2018 06:14

No I'm not mixing them up. Unspooled + Docklands is already breaking the limit.

You guys could simply use the two last bits in me[].m7. Those stored tram/road before and they're now free. That's the two bits you need to extend it to 32. Why not keep using the bits. They had that purpose before...

In my pack I'm going to use the m6 bit which previously marked the tile as having road as the 5th bit for the road subtype, and the m7 bit as the 5th bit of the tram type, since that previously marked the presence of tram tracks.

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Kruemelchen » 11 May 2018 09:31

I was referring to kamnets post, as he put together tram and road types in his list, while if I remember correctly, there are double as much slots as his stated "15 ... slots".

But anyway, I can of course see a use case for a doubled amount of available slots, even though I personally wouldn't need them, others may.


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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by peter1138 » 11 May 2018 10:37

He's like, some kind of OpenTTD developer.


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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Erato » 11 May 2018 14:25

I can find a usecase for 32 road/tramtypes and a usecase for 32 railtypes. (In fact, I can come up with a list of 37 tramtypes all of which have a reasonable usecase) The reason that you get the impression that you wouldn't need so many railtypes is because newgrf authors either have to ditch their ideas if the idea demands more railtypes than OpenTTD allows, or they have to come up with a clever solution, like using parameters to disable or enable some parts of their newgrf. After all, 32 railtypes is not in trunk, so you will want to have a newgrf taking the 16 railtype limit into account.

Of course, not every project really needs 32 railtypes or road/tramtypes, but by limiting the total amount of rail/road/tramtypes to 16
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Snail » 12 May 2018 13:02

Erato wrote:I can find a usecase for 32 road/tramtypes and a usecase for 32 railtypes. (In fact, I can come up with a list of 37 tramtypes all of which have a reasonable usecase) The reason that you get the impression that you wouldn't need so many railtypes is because newgrf authors either have to ditch their ideas if the idea demands more railtypes than OpenTTD allows, or they have to come up with a clever solution, like using parameters to disable or enable some parts of their newgrf. After all, 32 railtypes is not in trunk, so you will want to have a newgrf taking the 16 railtype limit into account.

Of course, not every project really needs 32 railtypes or road/tramtypes, but by limiting the total amount of rail/road/tramtypes to 16
The French Trains Set I'm developing will definitely need 32 railtypes (I'm planning for 21 already). This will force me to recommend users to switch to one of those forks, such as JGR's, which support this feature.

I frankly have no idea why the OTTD developers still refuse to implement 32 railtypes in trunk. If this continues, I'll have to add a parameter to my set that ditches a few railtypes to keep below 16 :roll:
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