Transport Tycoon Forums

The place to talk about Transport Tycoon
It is currently Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:02 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 439 posts ]  Go to page Previous 112 13 14 15 1622 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:46 am 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Zephyris wrote:
That render is about 6x the size it will be in-game, I think the detail will be enough!


Yes. I used to make the mistake to spend too much time on details that wouldn't be visible even on the 4x zoom level. On this model I actually exaggerate the dimensions of studs, cranks and rods to make them less blurry.

Another problem is that I'm in urgent need of a new desktop computer. I'm rendering some animations right now and it takes ~15 minutes for a single frame even without ray-traced shadows and reflections. I actually have made another train model that I haven't showed here because Max crashes every time I try to render it. :mrgreen:


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:35 am 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:44 pm
Posts: 9202
Location: Sol d
For open-source projects we offer render services on the DevZone server; we have a VM which is only dedicated to rendering 32bpp which runs blender. I'm not sure we can offer Max though... it needs run linux and I'd either need a license or it need be free software.

_________________
Image
OpenTTD: manual | online content | translations | Wanted contributions and patches
#openttdcoop: blog | wiki | public server | DevZone | NewGRF web translator
DevZone - home of the free NewGRFs: OpenSFX | OpenMSX | OpenGFX | Swedish Rails | OpenGFX+ Trains|RV|Industries|Airports|Landscape | NML


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:14 am 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
planetmaker wrote:
For open-source projects we offer render services on the DevZone server; we have a VM which is only dedicated to rendering 32bpp which runs blender. I'm not sure we can offer Max though... it needs run linux and I'd either need a license or it need be free software.


That's incredible! Too bad I suck at Blender at the moment. :roll: I actually began to take a course in Blender but sadly didn't have the time finish it. But I may have to learn it in the future so that is indeed great news.

Right now I'm doing some test animations:

Attachment:
Ten-Wheeler2.gif
Ten-Wheeler2.gif [ 52.84 KiB | Viewed 4580 times ]


I'm going to add some more details in the rear and add glass some glass to the windows so they become lighter and easier to see. :)


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:10 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 87
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
I'm a bit worried about the width of the steam engine model you're working currently. I'm not a bit expert in this field but IIRC there was a requirement for engines and wagons to be half-tile in size. In case I'm right on this wouldn't the model you're working on be a bit too long for glitch-free use? I hope I'm wrong on this but if not - it's a thing that should be cared about rather sooner than later.

P.S. I think Xotic750 might give a good advice on this.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:24 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
LeXa2 wrote:
I'm a bit worried about the width of the steam engine model you're working currently. I'm not a bit expert in this field but IIRC there was a requirement for engines and wagons to be half-tile in size. In case I'm right on this wouldn't the model you're working on be a bit too long for glitch-free use? I hope I'm wrong on this but if not - it's a thing that should be cared about rather sooner than later.

P.S. I think Xotic750 might give a good advice on this.


Yes, it's too long, but I don't care :). It might cause some graphical glitches, but I've tried long locomotives in-game before and I thought it worked pretty well.

1) It will always be attached to a tender, which will be shorter than a half tile.
2) I might put restrictions to stop the player from using double engines (after all, that was rather uncommon back in those days).
3) A small amount of overlapping can be tolerable

Also, I'm waiting for someone to remove this silly restriction :) . I've seen long road vehicles in the past, so I can't see why it shouldn't be possible to do with trains. I'm also planning to use extra angles, which eddi already has proves it possible, so I think think that would work really well with longer vehicles.

But this project will contain glitches, no question about it. You will eventually see piles of rocks disappear under houses and stuff like that. Certain parts of a locomotive might disappear when entering a tunnel. That's why I call this an "unoffical project". I want to explore the possibilities, even though some might think that it hurts the gameplay (which it may do in some aspects). The good thing is that there are alternatives. If believe zBase is going to be 100% glitch free.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:42 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:44 pm
Posts: 9202
Location: Sol d
Bad_Brett wrote:
1) It will always be attached to a tender, which will be shorter than a half tile.
2) I might put restrictions to stop the player from using double engines (after all, that was rather uncommon back in those days).
3) A small amount of overlapping can be tolerable

The problem with the length "restriction" is with how sprites are drawn. The glitches mostly will show when too long vehicles (trains or also road vehicles - just the same) enter tunnels. They might show there where they shouldn't show anymore. Removing this restriction is ... not easy.

In any case, the kind of glitches wich are to be expected are not eased by providing a smaller, trailing tender or disallowing two subsequent engines :-) - thus imposing that restriction on both your design or the player are not needed from this POV. And yes, making a vehicle slightly larger (like 9/8 of a half tile) will not result in anything dramatic...

_________________
Image
OpenTTD: manual | online content | translations | Wanted contributions and patches
#openttdcoop: blog | wiki | public server | DevZone | NewGRF web translator
DevZone - home of the free NewGRFs: OpenSFX | OpenMSX | OpenGFX | Swedish Rails | OpenGFX+ Trains|RV|Industries|Airports|Landscape | NML


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:50 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 87
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
Bad_Brett wrote:
...Also, I'm waiting for someone to remove this silly restriction :) . I've seen long road vehicles in the past, so I can't see why it shouldn't be possible to do with trains. I'm also planning to use extra angles, which eddi already has proves it possible, so I think think that would work really well with longer vehicles.

That's OK. I've been afraid that you're not aware of the problem but as it turns out you are - no probs then :-).

As for removing silly restriction: you know, from software engineer PoV almost everything is possible like vehicles that are 100500-tiles in width and so on. Main problem with OpenTTD and other projects whose central point is in re-implementing good-old-game in an open-source free way is that they have to maintain a backwards compatibility. Yeah, it's almost always possible to extend possibilities while maintaining backwards compatibility but in general it would lead to a code that isn't that efficient and is hard to understand - and thus changes of that kind are usually not welcome by maintainers of those projects. Thus I'd not expect vehicles of an arbitrary length to be implemented in the near future unless a miracle would happen and some talented C/C++ developer experienced in OpenTTD codebase would met some other experienced gfx artist (or, in "extreme miracle case", one person who is good in both C/C++ and gfx design) and together they would agree on committing a lot of their time implementing this.

Probable? Yes. Realistic? I don't think so, but who knows.

Bad_Brett wrote:
...The good thing is that there are alternatives. If believe zBase is going to be 100% glitch free.

I hope so either. Unfortunately it is not really the case yet for zBase. Nowdays it's not the case even for some tile sprites that seems to be considered "99% done" but I hope "childhood problems" would eventually be sorted out. TBH I'm not the big fan of the art style used in zBase but I'm totally under the impression that it's better to have something completed and working to start with and to base further work on it. On the other hand I'd be a big fan of having a baseset with more or less realistically looking sprites - just like your desert tileset is. If by any chance you'd eventually create a set of land and environment tiles for temperate and arctic climates - you'd make a lot of people (including me) a bit happier.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:07 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:56 am
Posts: 1867
Skype: squirejames5
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
LeXa2 wrote:
Well, and again "WoW!" is just the right word to describe my feelings looking at this WiP rendering. Being a low-level software developer and *nix system engineer I've always been a bit jealous looking at the amazing things music composers and/or gfx artists are able to do while for me things of that kind always were and forever will be something that I simply can't do. Ever.

Good work really! IMO this model might be not extensively detailed but it looks cool even as is.


Oddly enough, I feel the same way in reverse. I can make some pretty looking sprites, but can I code them? Can I edit the OpenTTD source? Can I even script a game script? Not on your nelly!

Very nice locomotive there. I might even turn my hand to some 3d modelling for a 3d bpp set. At least it's something I CAN do for OpenTTD :)

_________________
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:11 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:44 pm
Posts: 9202
Location: Sol d
LeXa2 wrote:
(...)Yeah, it's almost always possible to extend possibilities while maintaining backwards compatibility but in general it would lead to a code that isn't that efficient and is hard to understand - and thus changes of that kind are usually not welcome by maintainers of those projects. Thus I'd not expect vehicles of an arbitrary length to be implemented in the near future unless a miracle would happen.


One of the niceest in this respects are the... NewGRF specs themselves. They're overloaded with definitions of which many are not really well defined in retrospect. Also, you don't want to introduce a new NewGRF version every year (actually, why not? :D), so this restricts somewhat what you can do. And even if you introduce a new NewGRF version, you still have to keep the code for all previous NewGRF versions as well as for the new - for the sake of all those newgrfs which were written up to that day and are not written in the new version with the improved length definition.

Alternatives are introducing a new property with the same meaning but improved, new specs or inventing something really ugly which would extend the meaning of the existing property... neither is really ideal - it's often there the choice between two evils rather ;-)

_________________
Image
OpenTTD: manual | online content | translations | Wanted contributions and patches
#openttdcoop: blog | wiki | public server | DevZone | NewGRF web translator
DevZone - home of the free NewGRFs: OpenSFX | OpenMSX | OpenGFX | Swedish Rails | OpenGFX+ Trains|RV|Industries|Airports|Landscape | NML


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:40 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 87
Location: Moscow, Russian Federation
planetmaker wrote:
One of the niceest in this respects are the... NewGRF specs themselves. They're overloaded with definitions of which many are not really well defined in retrospect. Also, you don't want to introduce a new NewGRF version every year (actually, why not? :D), so this restricts somewhat what you can do. And even if you introduce a new NewGRF version, you still have to keep the code for all previous NewGRF versions as well as for the new - for the sake of all those newgrfs which were written up to that day and are not written in the new version with the improved length definition.


That's exactly what I've been writing about :-). When you overcomplicate something by keeping on extending it - you'd end up with something like OpenGL 2.x with its extension pool or X-protocol specifications with all that XInput/XInput2/Xv/XRender/X-whatever-the-hell-else stuff in there sitting and asking for trouble (bugs). At some point you'd end up with having to throw out some (OpenGL 3.x and on or EGL de-facto replacing GLX nowdays) or all of the existing codebase (Wayland which is beleived by some people to replace XServer in future) to progress further. For OpenTTD it means that it would either have to be forked into something like "OpenTTD Plus" where you'd be able to drop out less relevant backwards compatibility bits or create a totally new "OpenTTD NewGen" project which would initially be designed in a way to efficiently handle some desired set of features without bothering with any bits of backwards compatibility.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a fork of that kind or a new "OpenTTD NewGen" project to emerge in months following the completion of an open-source GNU/GPLv2 32bpp baseset project, be it zBase or some other yet to be announced baseset. Lack of a readily available "competitive state-of-art artwork" is something that looks to me like a one of the biggest show-stopper for enthusiastic people who want to invest their time in implementing TTD-like modern game.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:23 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:27 pm
Posts: 587
Location: Berlin, Germany
Bad_Brett wrote:
Also, I'm waiting for someone to remove this silly restriction :) .

Make your set GPL and then you can lift the CETS code magic for longer vehicles together with more turning angles. They are a lot more glitch-free than a simple oversized sprite. This would be NewGRF only and not for a base set, but I don't think you'd mind that.

The turning stages probably need smoother rails to really look good in higher zoom levels. This is currently impossible, but changing it wouldn't be too complicated. It's more of a problem of figuring out the best way to make sure that NewGRFs wouldn't end up with an endless pile of sprites.

Ideally a transition from diagonal to straight would only occupy the stretch from tile centre to centre (red sketch in the attached image) as it would allow creating many combinations programmatically. This is probably mostly a problem with the vertical rails as they are visually the shortest. Maybe you could try rendering such a curve someday :)

Attachment:
curve_tracks.png
curve_tracks.png [ 4.28 KiB | Viewed 4529 times ]

-- Michael Lutz


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:37 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
planetmaker wrote:
In any case, the kind of glitches wich are to be expected are not eased by providing a smaller, trailing tender or disallowing two subsequent engines :-) - thus imposing that restriction on both your design or the player are not needed from this POV. And yes, making a vehicle slightly larger (like 9/8 of a half tile) will not result in anything dramatic...


Oh, but I have the cure for these glitches... Some good 'ol overlapping :D . Yeah, sure, now someone will complain that the overlapping will cause some other problems, but I guess it's a question of priorities.
Attachment:
Tunnels.png
Tunnels.png [ 138.83 KiB | Viewed 4525 times ]


My biggest issues are the elevations, because they cause all kinds of weird problems.

Quote:
Make your set GPL and then you can lift the CETS code magic for longer vehicles together with more turning angles. They are a lot more glitch-free than a simple oversized sprite. This would be NewGRF only and not for a base set, but I don't think you'd mind that.

The turning stages probably need smoother rails to really look good in higher zoom levels. This is currently impossible, but changing it wouldn't be too complicated. It's more of a problem of figuring out the best way to make sure that NewGRFs wouldn't end up with an endless pile of sprites.

Ideally a transition from diagonal to straight would only occupy the stretch from tile centre to centre (red sketch in the attached image) as it would allow creating many combinations programmatically. This is probably mostly a problem with the vertical rails as they are visually the shortest. Maybe you could try rendering such a curve someday :)


Now we're talking! Since my set is going to have different industries and vehicles, it's going to be a NewGRF anyway.

When I talked to eddi I got the impression that the extra turning stages were done by switching spritesets, so I was planning to write an algorithm for that. I have no idea how to make curved track though, but I'll gladly support you with rendered track pieces if you're willing to give it a shot.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:35 am 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:27 pm
Posts: 587
Location: Berlin, Germany
Bad_Brett wrote:
When I talked to eddi I got the impression that the extra turning stages were done by switching spritesets, so I was planning to write an algorithm for that.

Basically yes. It's a tiny bit more complicated because each visible vehicle is actually made out of a three-part articulated vehicle and the sprite bits that each part is drawing vary with the position as well.

Bad_Brett wrote:
I have no idea how to make curved track though, but I'll gladly support you with rendered track pieces if you're willing to give it a shot.

Coding is just one or two extra NewGRF variables and some slight changes to the OTTD drawing algorithm. The trick is here is to make sure you don't need to supply a trillion different sprites. Like for example is it always necessary to draw a full tile at once to avoid ugly overlaps or would it be enough to e.g. just split the track overlay into sleepers and rails. If you need the whole tile instead of just a half tile to make it look good, you've multiplied the sprite count as well. I tried to pixel paint some test pieces, but the results were very much a complete failure 8)

Anyway, I'm without a proper dev environment for the next few weeks, so no need to hurry anything :)

-- Michael Lutz


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:41 am 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:44 pm
Posts: 9202
Location: Sol d
Bad_Brett wrote:
planetmaker wrote:
In any case, the kind of glitches wich are to be expected are not eased by providing a smaller, trailing tender or disallowing two subsequent engines :-) - thus imposing that restriction on both your design or the player are not needed from this POV. And yes, making a vehicle slightly larger (like 9/8 of a half tile) will not result in anything dramatic...


Oh, but I have the cure for these glitches... Some good 'ol overlapping :D . Yeah, sure, now someone will complain that the overlapping will cause some other problems, but I guess it's a question of priorities.
Attachment:
Tunnels.png


Let me complain^W advise :D The problem with that overlap of the tunnel's top sprite is that it'll overlap on anything built ontop of the tile (like a house, road, other track,...) it overlaps. And it will then glitch much more often (like always) as opposed to only the small moment an overlong vehicle passes the tunnel entrance/exit.

_________________
Image
OpenTTD: manual | online content | translations | Wanted contributions and patches
#openttdcoop: blog | wiki | public server | DevZone | NewGRF web translator
DevZone - home of the free NewGRFs: OpenSFX | OpenMSX | OpenGFX | Swedish Rails | OpenGFX+ Trains|RV|Industries|Airports|Landscape | NML


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:48 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
planetmaker wrote:
Let me complain^W advise :D The problem with that overlap of the tunnel's top sprite is that it'll overlap on anything built ontop of the tile (like a house, road, other track,...) it overlaps. And it will then glitch much more often (like always) as opposed to only the small moment an overlong vehicle passes the tunnel entrance/exit.


Bah! Don't be so negative! :wink: Just add a pile of rocks or something. As long as these glitches don't cause the game to crash, run slowly or become unplayable, these issues can often be "fixed" with some creativity.

Michi_cc wrote:
Basically yes. It's a tiny bit more complicated because each visible vehicle is actually made out of a three-part articulated vehicle and the sprite bits that each part is drawing vary with the position as well.


Yeah, now it sounds really complicated :P :|. Some help with this would be greatly appreciated (although that project should be a few months off). I really love your solution.

Michi_cc wrote:
Coding is just one or two extra NewGRF variables and some slight changes to the OTTD drawing algorithm. The trick is here is to make sure you don't need to supply a trillion different sprites. Like for example is it always necessary to draw a full tile at once to avoid ugly overlaps or would it be enough to e.g. just split the track overlay into sleepers and rails.


I think the second option is the only realistic one. Again, these are minor issues that can be solved with some creativity. In my tileset, I use small plants to fill gaps in the tracks. This works because you see what you expect to see. If the gap is filled, you probably won't pay attention to it and therefore won't even discover that the track looks slightly green in that particular place. I guess this works better in a dirtier environment, but I'm convinced that the second option would be more than enough to create stunning graphics.

Finally, a small update:

Attachment:
Tender2.png
Tender2.png [ 469.13 KiB | Viewed 4471 times ]


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:40 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:44 pm
Posts: 9202
Location: Sol d
Very tasty, as usual :-) .

And protruding rocks or similar might indeed be the solution ;-)

_________________
Image
OpenTTD: manual | online content | translations | Wanted contributions and patches
#openttdcoop: blog | wiki | public server | DevZone | NewGRF web translator
DevZone - home of the free NewGRFs: OpenSFX | OpenMSX | OpenGFX | Swedish Rails | OpenGFX+ Trains|RV|Industries|Airports|Landscape | NML


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:28 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
4-2-0 Norris:

Attachment:
Norris.jpg
Norris.jpg [ 154.97 KiB | Viewed 4372 times ]


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:54 pm 
Offline
Chief Executive
Chief Executive
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:46 pm
Posts: 644
Location: Berlin, Germany
Just a short note: I follow this topic from creation, and those stunning images really could make OpenTTD "wild wild west" a game experience that graphically challenges professional games.

By the way, in simutrans we had found a way to deal with overlapping vehicles on more than a tile using polygonal clipping (i.e. at 2:1 x:y ratio on flat tiles with a connected way) allowing for almost glitchfree vehicles up to two tiles long. Unfourtunately I have never looked at those parts in OpenTTD; if this is applicable to OpenTTD I could offer some assistance in explaining the code using for simutrans.

_________________
I like to look at great maps and see how things flow. A little like a finished model railway, but it is evolving and actually never finished. http://www.simutrans.com


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:49 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
prissi wrote:
Just a short note: I follow this topic from creation, and those stunning images really could make OpenTTD "wild wild west" a game experience that graphically challenges professional games.

By the way, in simutrans we had found a way to deal with overlapping vehicles on more than a tile using polygonal clipping (i.e. at 2:1 x:y ratio on flat tiles with a connected way) allowing for almost glitchfree vehicles up to two tiles long. Unfourtunately I have never looked at those parts in OpenTTD; if this is applicable to OpenTTD I could offer some assistance in explaining the code using for simutrans.


Thank you! :D To be honest, I know very little about these things. I've learned the basics of NML, but don't know to much about the advanced stuff. I'm therefore really happy that so many people have offered me their help lately. The plan right now is to finish the tileset and turn into a NewGRF, so that I can use it while testing new industries and vehicles (I still use png codec for the ground tiles). This will probably take a couple of weeks. After that, I'll probably need a lot of help with the coding. Hopefully there'll be a way to include both curved tracks and longer vehicles.

2-6-0 Mogul (a bit glitchy):
Attachment:
Mogul.gif
Mogul.gif [ 30.84 KiB | Viewed 4237 times ]


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:49 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Here it is: My first ox-cart! :D

Attachment:
Ox2.gif
Ox2.gif [ 28.62 KiB | Viewed 4042 times ]
Attachment:
Ox.gif
Ox.gif [ 32 KiB | Viewed 4042 times ]


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 439 posts ]  Go to page Previous 112 13 14 15 1622 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SomeIndianGuy and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000-2019 phpBB Limited

Copyright © Owen Rudge/The Transport Tycoon Forums 2001-2019.
Hosted by Zernebok Hosting.