Major parts of Thameslink project nearing completion

[Pilot]

I'd take anything, as long as it isn't a Pacer

I don't know. Pacers always kind of look pretty run to ride on. Like a bus going down a dirt road

There worse than that, at least the Bus doesn't squeal going around Corners

[Geo Ghost]

Maybe they could send the remaining 23 Class 319s, along with the FCC Class 317/321/365

Great idea! Let's sent all the FCC trains somewhere else so we have none...

No. 317s, 321s and especially the 365s are staying put.

[Geo Ghost]

What about the fact FCC is getting 325 New 4 car trains to replace the 178 Class 317/319/321/365 fleet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thameslink ... _programme

Oh look. Wikipedia. It must be true then...

Firstly, nowhere on that page does it say about getting 325 new trains to replace the entire fleet of trains - TL and GN.
Secondly, that page is talking about the Thameslink route. Not the Great Northern.
Thirdly, the link states that the intention is to introduce more capacity. Not just replace.
Fourthly, if you had bothered to look at the references, you'd see that the new stock is for replacing the 319s and adding capacity. Not the 317s, 321s and 365s - which run on the Great Northern. Not Thameslink. (Ref)

I don't know what the words are that follow so I'm sticking to numbers.

5 - The expected order was 110 units (as of late 2008), not 325 like you suggested. (Ref)
6 - The specification for the units is for Thameslink only. the fact that the name of it is called the "Thameslink Rolling Stock Project" and not Thameslink and Great Northern should be a dead give away. (Ref)
7 - Actually no. I've made my point I'll stop there.



So Alan, do you think you could at least get information correctly from your sources? Even if your sources of information are crap.
Thank you and good day.

[Pilot]

The Source says that they are getting 110 Units, the equivalent to around 300 4-Car trains.

[Geo Ghost]

It is getting 1300 passenger rail vehicles (A total of 325 4-car trains) and your source states they are getting 300 4-car trains that’s still 75% more than the combined 317/319/321/265 fleet.

Which one then. I searched each of those sources and there was nothing on there mentioning Great Northern, 317, 321 OR 365s.
The fact you've replied so quickly suggests you haven't read them.

Also the GN routes are becoming part of Thameslink, hence when the FCC franchise, which is known as the Thameslink/Great Northern franchise will be known as the Thameslink franchise!

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/s ... unced.html

Alan, the programme means services can fun from the Great Northern to the Thameslink.
Show us where, in writing, it says that the GN and TL which all be called 'Thameslink'.
Your source there doesn't even mention the words Great Northern. There's actually nothing in that link that supports what you've said.

If the 317/321/365 fleet is still going to be used on GN routes, then how on earth is it going to to services south of river?

365s are duel voltage if the 3rd-rail shoe is fitted, for a start.
For through-London traffic, it is more likely they'll bring on new trains for those routes. NOT to replace the current stock on the Great Northern.

Lastly what you don’t get is that the FCC routes that end at KX will now be extended to the Thameslink line and beyond, it like the Thameslink taking over the Great Northern!

I know that all GN routes end in KX or Moorgate. How do I know? Well, I've travelled those routes hundreds of times...
There is NOWHERE that states that all GN routes will cease to run in KX. Nowhere. That would be a very silly idea anyway if that's what happened. Go and state where it says that all GN routes will go through London and not into KX. Go on. try it.

What you don't get is that I live next to the GN and travel on it almost every day. You're trying to claim greater experience than someone who knows the area better than you. Whilst I don't claim to know everything about the Thameslink Programme as a whole, I am VERY confident about the knowledge I have for my local line which I've grown up next to and seen almost every day of my life. Just before you even try and trump my knowledge on the area and this section of line.
Don't say that's not what you're trying to do, because I've seen you do it countless times to people. You've claimed to know so much about everywhere in the UK and even to the point of suggesting you know more than the people who live there or use that area - whether it be rail OR aviation.

[Ameecher]

A decent bit or rebuilding with new traction packages would see PEP stock last a decent few years longer which would be cheaper than a new build and then when have enough money to spend on new stock they can be replaced. A better plan than chasing F1 drivers out of Monaco.

I have an issue with the whole 319s plan, you seem to offer them as replacements for everything, there are a lot of 319s but not that many.

If they can do a good refurbushment job on the 313s (like Merseyrails 507 + 508s), then they will last another decent few years, if FCC are prepaired to do it that is...

FCC don't have the ability to do it themselves, it's down to the ROSCO to fund it.

There are 63 Class 313s in service (in both FCC and Southern) and there are 86 Class 319s, they will still be 23 319s for other uses...

But the 319s aren't suitable to be a like for like replacement for the 313s for reasons previously discussed as well as their top speed/slower acceleration.

[Nawdic]

By the way what is the longest lasting rolling stock in the UK (in normal service)

A60/62 LU stock (while they last)

Also, bit OT but the pioneer A stock set has been scrapped!!!!

After that, then probably the Bakerloo 1967 stock.

But, if you're talking locos..... 03179, strangely with FCC!! (Now beat that Geo and Ammecher!!)

[Chris]

1938 Stock on the Island Line?

[Nawdic]

Good point.

[Pilot]

Which one then. I searched each of those sources and there was nothing on there mentioning Great Northern, 317, 321 OR 365s.
The fact you've replied so quickly suggests you haven't read them.

It states here that Thameslink will be getting 300 new 4-car trains

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/s ... ssued.html

Actually, there it states the Equivalent to 300 new 4-Car Trains, but they wont be 4-Car, so there wont be 300 of them!!!!

[Hyronymus]

Which one then. I searched each of those sources and there was nothing on there mentioning Great Northern, 317, 321 OR 365s.
The fact you've replied so quickly suggests you haven't read them.

It states here that Thameslink will be getting 300 new 4-car trains

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/s ... ssued.html

Actually, there it states the Equivalent to 300 new 4-Car Trains, but they wont be 4-Car, so there wont be 300 of them!!!!

Instead, it will be around 110 numbers. But boy, let's hope not in that horrible pink colour for you Brits.

Strangely, in the related news article here it's mentioned "around 1 200" (!) units will be delivered. Change of plans?

[Dave]

A bit of maths might help you here...

300 four car sets is 1200 carriages.

They have been told to expect 110 units. I would suggest that the 240m units are 10-car, as it'll probably be around 22-24m per car. Assuming that's the case, I'd say the 160m units are 6-car.


EDIT: No, Hyro - that'll be the number of carriages. Which won't be that many if there are a ton of 10-car units.

[Pilot]

It states here that Thameslink will be getting 300 new 4-car trains

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/s ... ssued.html

Actually, there it states the Equivalent to 300 new 4-Car Trains, but they wont be 4-Car, so there wont be 300 of them!!!!

So how many are they getting then and how will the formations work?

As it says and as has been pointed out 110!

[Dave]

Well, that article says they are going to have 240m and 160m fixed rakes, which suggests 10 and 6 car units respectively.

[Ameecher]

A bit of maths might help you here...

300 four car sets is 1200 carriages.

They have been told to expect 110 units. I would suggest that the 240m units are 10-car, as it'll probably be around 22-24m per car. Assuming that's the case, I'd say the 160m units are 6-car.

Nope, you'd never get a 23 vehicle round Borough Market Junction. They are 20m maximum being delivered in 8 (160m) and 12 car (240m) formations. The original idea was for 4 car units to be delivered with combinations of those to make the 8 and 12 car formations but the final order was for fixed 8 and 12 car formations.
Whilst this does save wasted cabs and crumple zones which will rarely be used I can't help but feel that 8 car fixed formations with a load of 4 cars to strengthen the 8 cars to 12 would have been a better idea but whatever.

[Dave]

Nice one Gavin.

[Hyronymus]

EDIT: No, Hyro - that'll be the number of carriages. Which won't be that many if there are a ton of 10-car units.

I see, 1.200 vehicles != 1.200 consists. Quite a change from 4-car consists to 10-car consists btw, I don't think they ever went so extreme in The Netherlands upon introducing new consists.

Well, that article says they are going to have 240m and 160m fixed rakes, which suggests 10 and 6 car units respectively.

If the trains are going to cosist of 20 meter long cars, then it will be 8-car and 12-car

For there to be 6-car and 10-car trains, then the cars will have to be 24 meters long (longer than a Mark 3/4 + 390 car and only 2 meters shorter than a IEP car)

Correct, and if the carriages are are 10m long they will consist of 24 or 16 carriages. And with 5m, 48/32 carriages.

[Dave]

EDIT: No, Hyro - that'll be the number of carriages. Which won't be that many if there are a ton of 10-car units.

I see, 1.200 vehicles != 1.200 consists. Quite a change from 4-car consists to 10-car consists btw, I don't think they ever went so extreme in The Netherlands upon introducing new consists.

Well that's what Gavin is saying - it seems bizarre to order them in fixed 12 car rakes - the ideal solution would be to do what they do with the 444s/450s, which is operate them almost always as 10-car rakes, made up of 2 5-car sets.

[Ameecher]

Well currently Thameslink runs as 2x4car or 3x4 car, nothing ever runs as 1 x 4car (as far as I know and you can see why when you look at the routes). So they're eliminating the need for wasted cabs. The idea is that the 12 car sets run the current Bedford - Brighton route and the 8 car sets run the new routes where there aren't long enough platforms to accommodate 12 cars.
Can anyone else see a 222 style cock up and they all get remarshalled into 10 car sets?

[EXTspotter]

I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with Alan. Whilst some cabspace is wasted by having 4 carriage units rather than longer ones, doesn't the increased flexibility of right-sizing units for the time of day save some money. Also when a problem occurs on one half of a pair of units, the working unit can keep the entire set moving and when the unit goes out of service to fix the fault you are only 4 carriages down, rather than 8 or 12. I see the benefit of the longer trains, but what is the point of running 12 carriage units late at night where 4 is more than sufficient?