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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:14 am 
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I think I will create a capital city in the center of a map. This capital city provides a harbour, where you can buy all resources you need to build infrastructure and buildings. This way, the farer you get away from the harbor (=center of map) the more expensive it gets.

[Side note: During the game you can build your own factories providing the resources you need.]

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:58 am 
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A prebuild capital city in the center of the map (or at the coast?) sounds like a good solution. Maybe every player could build/design his own hometown too? Something you should avoid in my opinion is automated computercontrolled towngrowth, because it's always unsatisfying.


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:36 pm 
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robo wrote:
Something you should avoid in my opinion is automated computercontrolled towngrowth, because it's always unsatisfying.

Let me correct that: It is unsatisfying in many (all) games till now ;) But yeah. Of course there is a big chance that it will be unsatisfying in P1SIM too. So I will provide an option "disable town growth".

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:14 am 
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It would already make a difference, if towns are not allowed to build roads and if players could build roads and put some placeholders for buildings.
Another problem is that in many games you can't modify a road already in use. It's also a problem in catrain, if you modify an existing railroad track which is in use for example by placing a new signal, you have to renew all existing itenararys manually, which can get quite tedious. This problem doesn't exist in locomotion for trains, so there may be a workaround.


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:01 pm 
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robo wrote:
Another problem is that in many games you can't modify a road already in use. It's also a problem in catrain, if you modify an existing railroad track which is in use for example by placing a new signal, you have to renew all existing itenararys manually, which can get quite tedious. This problem doesn't exist in locomotion for trains, so there may be a workaround.

The problem also appear on Simutrans. The game that overcomed this is OpenTTD and Locomotion, but with the expense of vehicle easily get lost on advanced layouts (that go against the pathfinder).

Even the problem exist on SC4. So its a two contradicting side of pathing.

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:42 am 
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Yoursnotmine wrote:
So its a two contradicting side of pathing.

In the game Sid Meiers railroads trains are able to use signals, but there was a setting that trains could pass through each other after a short delay if there's a deadlock. This seems to be a good solution in my opinion, but I didn't like how the game places the signals automatically. I could imagine railroads without signals similar to industry giant 2 too or a game without any trains at all (only trucks), as long as other elements of the game are interesting enough to compensate this "fun feature".


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:30 am 
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robo wrote:
In the game Sid Meiers railroads trains are able to use signals, but there was a setting that trains could pass through each other after a short delay if there's a deadlock. This seems to be a good solution in my opinion, but I didn't like how the game places the signals automatically. I could imagine railroads without signals similar to industry giant 2 too or a game without any trains at all (only trucks), as long as other elements of the game are interesting enough to compensate this "fun feature".


In Railroad Tycoon 3 there are no signals, but the lowest priority train is stopped; on dual-track, three trains must meet for one to stop. I think this is the right approach for a more simulationist game; at the scale you're looking at the map, individual signals and passing places shouldn't be visible. OTTD's signals are fun, but produce an essentially abstract game because of the conflation of scales (ie, the way the trains are all in a sense 8km long leads to massively unprototypical layouts if you want high throughput.)


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:32 pm 
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First of all: In P1SIM there will be trains and there will be signals.

You wont be able to edit roads/tracks that are already in use. BUT: You can block a single road lane. A construction car will arrive at the beginning of the road lane (next crossing) and place a construction sign there. No more cars will enter the road lane. As soon as the road lane is free of vehicles you can edit/delete/expand it. Same for other infrastructure elements.

This is the current plan. The testing phase will show if this concept works or other (simpler) options have to be applied.

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:45 pm 
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smallfly wrote:
First of all: In P1SIM there will be trains and there will be signals.

You wont be able to edit roads/tracks that are already in use. BUT: You can block a single road lane. A construction car will arrive at the beginning of the road lane (next crossing) and place a construction sign there. No more cars will enter the road lane. As soon as the road lane is free of vehicles you can edit/delete/expand it. Same for other infrastructure elements.

This is the current plan. The testing phase will show if this concept works or other (simpler) options have to be applied.


sounds good so if needs rebuilding the entire road - its could have lanes closed and planning to reroute cars around work sites?


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:48 pm 
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rsdworker wrote:
sounds good so if needs rebuilding the entire road - its could have lanes closed and planning to reroute cars around work sites?

thats the plan.

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:52 pm 
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sounds great - i will pay this one once the alpha is started because i would love to help out with ideas and designs

so i am not sure when you expecting to release alpha version yet but i hope soon


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:18 pm 
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smallfly wrote:
You wont be able to edit roads/tracks that are already in use. BUT: You can block a single road lane. A construction car will arrive at the beginning of the road lane (next crossing) and place a construction sign there. No more cars will enter the road lane. As soon as the road lane is free of vehicles you can edit/delete/expand it. Same for other infrastructure elements.

This is the current plan. The testing phase will show if this concept works or other (simpler) options have to be applied.

But how about if it's the only road/rail existed ? Isn't that means everybody should prepare a secondary track/road ? Probably its fine in intercity road case, but how about a road to a mine/factory, or even very early rails ?
TBH, I agree if it'll use a pathfinder similliar to YAPF or the Locomotion one. But for sure, make waypoints.

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Yoursnotmine wrote:
But how about if it's the only road/rail existed ? Isn't that means everybody should prepare a secondary track/road ? Probably its fine in intercity road case, but how about a road to a mine/factory, or even very early rails?

What would happen in reality?

A road normally consists of two lanes. Modifying one lane only requires THIS lane to be closed. The other road lane still works AND can be used in both directions for the time of construction. Using traffic lights to control which direction is allowed to enter the single lane. (Thats the current plan. It doesnt have to be the final implementation.)

A single track lane to a mine/factory is more complicated. If you announce to close the lane, you have to wait until all trains already one the way have passed the section. No more trains will plan to use this lane. If a train HAS TO use a certain track lane it will not leave the station or go to a siding.

But these topics are hard to discuss without any videos/pictures. Let's way until there is something showable (a pre-alpha).

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Ok, as it seems I have more evidence here, let's see what happen :
Roads : Work done overnight (empty hours, often overnight). At day / peak hour, the work site is re-opened, as much as possible.
Rails : Full closure - but often done overnight (adding branch, installing signal, not-so urgent repairs, etc.). Unless in case of rail de-alignment, there's no other way than full closure.

So pretty much as what you said. But implementing the points above would make it more realistic (yes, including the disaster).

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:20 am 
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smallfly wrote:
First of all: In P1SIM there will be trains and there will be signals.

You wont be able to edit roads/tracks that are already in use. BUT: You can block a single road lane. A construction car will arrive at the beginning of the road lane (next crossing) and place a construction sign there. No more cars will enter the road lane. As soon as the road lane is free of vehicles you can edit/delete/expand it. Same for other infrastructure elements.

This is the current plan. The testing phase will show if this concept works or other (simpler) options have to be applied.


Is the same thing done in reality (especially if the case is to install a signal along a track)? Wouldn't updating the train's pathfinding, or something along those lines, to recognise a new signal once its order cycle has finished/once it reaches a certain point (say, a station), be easier? Or have you already thought of this and decided it would be too CPU-intensive?


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:51 pm 
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wanderer28 wrote:
Wouldn't updating the train's pathfinding, or something along those lines, to recognise a new signal once its order cycle has finished/once it reaches a certain point (say, a station), be easier? Or have you already thought of this and decided it would be too CPU-intensive?

Let me think about that, when It have reached the corresponding development phase.

The following signals will be available in P1SIM to control vehicles: The screenshot is taken from the module editor. This is not the way the dialog is presented to the player (!) but to module creators. The dialog is used to position signal placeholders on modules.
Attachment:
signals.png
signals.png [ 56.65 KiB | Viewed 4295 times ]


Traffic lights are green, yellow or red (like in reality).

There will be two types of rail signals: A standard rail signal and a pre-signal. The standard signal is green or red (steady) or yellow (flashing). The pre-signal is yellow (steady) or off.

Stop bar lights (for planes) are placed on runway entrances and are red (steady) or off.

Ship signals work like rail signals (pre- and standard signal). They are visible by default. If you prefer the realistic way (there are no visible lights on the sea), you can easily switch them off in the game.

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Last edited by smallfly on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:53 pm 
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wanderer28 wrote:
smallfly wrote:
First of all: In P1SIM there will be trains and there will be signals.

You wont be able to edit roads/tracks that are already in use. BUT: You can block a single road lane. A construction car will arrive at the beginning of the road lane (next crossing) and place a construction sign there. No more cars will enter the road lane. As soon as the road lane is free of vehicles you can edit/delete/expand it. Same for other infrastructure elements.

This is the current plan. The testing phase will show if this concept works or other (simpler) options have to be applied.


Is the same thing done in reality (especially if the case is to install a signal along a track)? Wouldn't updating the train's pathfinding, or something along those lines, to recognise a new signal once its order cycle has finished/once it reaches a certain point (say, a station), be easier? Or have you already thought of this and decided it would be too CPU-intensive?

In case I missed something earlier in development - is there just one type of railway signal?

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:57 pm 
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SwissFan91 wrote:
is there just one type of railway signal?

You were too fast. I edited my post. There are three types (see above). But you will be able to use an "expert mode" where you can configure any thinkable signal type. The normal player will only use the standard signal and a pre signal.

It works like this: A train approaches a pre-signal. If this is off, the train keeps full speed. If the pre-signal is yellow the train slowly reduces speed and stops at the following red standard signal.

Complex crossings have yellow flashing rail signals. They work like the path signals of OpenTTD.

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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Quote:
Ship signals work like rail signals (pre- and standard signal). They are visible by default. If you prefer the realistic way (there are no visible lights on the sea), you can easily switch them off in the game.


in realism - there signals at Ports to control the traffic - commonly red or green - there no signals out in sea - only bocys (floating markers) to warn the dangers in area or control traffic


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 Post subject: Re: Construction
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:26 pm 
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rsdworker wrote:
in realism - there signals at Ports to control the traffic - commonly red or green - there no signals out in sea - only bocys (floating markers) to warn the dangers in area or control traffic

Dont imagine the ship signals as physical signals. Its only a visual representation of a digital control layer. I just want to make transparent why a ship stops and I want to give players the possibility to use the same powerful signal types for ships that are used for trains.

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