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 Post subject: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:58 am 
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To make life easier for newgrf authors, there has been a convention of posting cargo labels to the newgrf specs wiki page at http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Ca ... rgo_Labels

However, I have been unable to edit the newgrf wiki for a long time as my credentials don't work. I have created new credentials and they don't work either.

This means that the newgrf wiki can't be kept up to date by me when cargos are added to FIRS.

So to make the cargo labels easy to find:

1. FIRS docs contain a list of cargo labels. This list is generated automatically during the compile, and is guaranteed to be accurate: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/pus ... tml#cargos

2. I will try to maintain a list here of labels that are missing from the newgrf wiki.
At the time of posting, these are:

- EOIL (Edible Oil)
- PHOS (Phosphate)
- PORE (Pyrite Ore)
- VPTS (Vehicle Parts)

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Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:07 pm 
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Appears SilverSurferZzZ and I were editing the wiki at the same time, but they're added to the list :)

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:46 pm 
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Thanks :)

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Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:38 pm 
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The new cargos (Cassava, Manganese and Nuts) are included in the wiki :-)

Cassava -> CASS
Manganese -> MNO2
Nuts -> NUTS

With this, wiki is up to date.

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Could someone add FIRS to the VEHI entry? Thanks :)

http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Ca ... rgo_Labels

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:17 pm 
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andythenorth wrote:
Could someone add FIRS to the VEHI entry? Thanks :)

http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Ca ... rgo_Labels
Fixed

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:14 pm 
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New cargos (I can't add them to the newgrf wiki as I can't log in to it) :)

Aluminium ALUM
Base Metals BASE (these are copper, nickel, zinc, lead etc - wikipedia knows)
Coke COKE
Explosives BOOM
Galvanised Steel GALV
Marine Supplies SESP (sea supplies)
Nickel NICK
Pig Iron IRON
Powertrain Components POWR
Quicklime QLME
Slag SLAG

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:18 am 
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Off topic...

andythenorth wrote:
Explosives BOOM

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:15 pm 
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As usual, play-testing resulted in changes :twisted:

These are no longer in FIRS, but they're not in the wiki either, so eh ;)
Aluminium ALUM
Base Metals BASE (these are copper, nickel, zinc, lead etc - wikipedia knows)Coke COKE
Galvanised Steel GALV
Marine Supplies SESP (sea supplies)
Powertrain Components POWR

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:45 pm 
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I'm curious to know what Marine Supplies were for.
What were you planning? Brief rundown?

Pete.

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:12 am 
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Afaik, there were used as supply cargo for sea-based industries, such as fishing grounds.

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:30 am 
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Captain Rand wrote:
I'm curious to know what Marine Supplies were for.

They were accepted at port-type industries (Port, Bulk Terminal etc). It was a nice idea that added a ship-yard industry, but didn't work well when play-tested.

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:34 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
As usual, play-testing resulted in changes

Seems that somebody added "fake" cargoes (CMNT, PIPE, PULP, SASH, VBOD) which aren´t available in FIRS, due to

http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/rel ... argos.html
http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/rel ... tml#cargos

nor mentioned in the list above.

regards
Michael

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:33 am 
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michael blunck wrote:
...(CMNT, PIPE, PULP, SASH, VBOD) which aren´t available in FIRS, due to


There are 'alt-docs' :twisted: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/pus ... tml#cargos

These are built from every commit, rather than tagged releases.

They are a much better place to track unreleased changes. However they come with a health warning: they change frequently as ideas evolve and are play-tested. I wouldn't recommend maintaining a vehicle set against the push docs. 8)

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:16 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
[...] However they come with a health warning: they change frequently as ideas evolve and are play-tested.

Mmh, so these are (semi-)"official"? Looked to me like "fake" or "vandalism", since I don´t see much sense in most of them. So, a late commitment to "realism"/"rivet counting"/"foaming"? :twisted:

andythenorth wrote:
I wouldn't recommend maintaining a vehicle set against the push docs.

Thanks for the advice. I´ve already learnt not to do so, in case of FIRS. :cool:

regards
Michael

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:18 pm 
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michael blunck wrote:
Mmh, so these are (semi-)"official"?


They'll be in a FIRS release in 2017, unless play-testing causes them to change, or they're derailed by fate. :twisted:

Pulpwood (PULP) I am very dubious about, I am play-testing it and I am not sure it adds anything at all compared to plain WOOD. In theory it brings the opportunity to have dedicated bulk vehicles (woodchip hoppers/trucks) for pulp which would be inappropriate for logs. It also forces the player to serve both the lumber and the paper chains in FIRS Arctic Basic. I am unconvinced by both of those arguments. :shock:

Cement, soda ash, pipe and vehicle bodies have survived a few rounds of play-testing. A couple of those at least offer interesting cargo sprites for vehicles. 8)

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:19 pm 
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andythenorth wrote:
Pulpwood (PULP) I am very dubious about, I am play-testing it and I am not sure it adds anything at all compared to plain WOOD. In theory it brings the opportunity to have dedicated bulk vehicles (woodchip hoppers/trucks) for pulp which would be inappropriate for logs. It also forces the player to serve both the lumber and the paper chains in FIRS Arctic Basic. I am unconvinced by both of those arguments.

First of all, I like the consistent style of your graphics, and this is fine pixel art. Unfortunately, I can´t help with evaluating your set in a more detailed way, since I don´t "play" much, but rather test compatibility with a new version of DBXL (still in development). Thus, my remarks will be more on the technical side, not about how the features of your set will work out in game.

Speaking of cargo labels, I´d like to add some comments.

As of now, we have two classes of cargoes/labels:

- labels exclusively for a specific cargo (e.g. "coffee"[*] -> JAVA)
- labels with a broader context (e.g. "building materials" -> BDMT, s.b.)

[*] Yes.There are different sorts of "coffee": arabica, robusta, liberica, stenophylla, congensis, bonnieri, ..., but even the hardest bean counter would agree that we´d have to draw the line somewhere.

IMO, it´s problematic to mix both approaches, because this has unintended impact on vehicle sets to be compatible with such industry sets. And this isn´t a specific problem in FIRS, but also in other industry/cargo sets.

For example, let´s take a look at the history of the BDMT label. IIRC, at first ECS introduced CMNT, GLAS, and BRCK (cement, glass, bricks; all "building materials"), then FIRS introduced BDMT, a superset to those cargoes, and ECS - in an attempt to follow suit - dropped CMNT (and BRCK) in favour of BDMT (retaining GLAS, for whatever reason).

Now, FIRS again introduces CMNT, but with no universal structure, since in one of its economies ("steeltown") "cement" (CMNT) is used as a real cargo, but in other economies ("in a hot country", "extreme") "cement plants" are producing "building materials" (BDMT), which (from a vehicle set´s POV) would be indeed "cement" (what else would be produced by a cement plant? I.e., a sub-cargo to BDMT; [also in ECS as of 2010]).

Needless to say, that FIRS specifies "building materials" as "Cement, glass, metal components, wood products, pipes and similar construction materials", but only the first one now with a competing extra label.

There are more such inconsistencies in FIRS (and in ECS), making it hard for a vehicle set author to apply specific cargo graphics, without introducing overhead, e.g. in testing for the current "economy".


IMO, a useful attempt would be to decouple ("private") cargo names / cargo descriptions from their ("global") labels whenever possible. E.g., FIRS didn´t need to introduce a new label METL (instead of TTD´s STEL) in the first place, and then could have been used STEL for every metal, e.g. for "nickel" (NICK in "arctic basic"), and "copper" (COPR in "tropic basic").

O/c, there might be a need for new labels in economies with many similar cargoes, but in economies where there are no colliding cargo labels, introduction of redundant labels complicates things for vehicle set authors needlessly.


Another meaningful approach would be to use "sub-cargoes" where applicable, but I presume, you´re not a fan of it? E.g., "pulpwood" could simply be a sub-cargo for "wood products" WDPR, and "cement" could be a sub-cargo for BDMT (in fact I did it this way for ECS).

In fact, many ECS and FIRS cargo labels stand for a rather generic set of cargoes (BDMT, ENSP, FMSP, MNSP, RFPR, VEHI, etc) in terms of associated cargo graphics, and thus has to be handled "specially" by vehicle sets. E.g., for FMSP I´m providing three different car types (box car, gondola, flat car) for different cargoes associated to FMSP (packaged, bulk, vehicles).

Attachment:
FMSP.png
FMSP.png [ 9.35 KiB | Viewed 864 times ]

OTOH, there are a lot of very specific cargoes (BEAN, BRCK, CASS, EOIL, GLAS, NUTS, PIPE, PULP, QLME, SASH, SLAG, ..,) not to mention a dozen sort of ores, and a number of colliding or questionable cargoes/labels like CERA, GRVL/LIME, STEL/METL/COPR, NITR/PHOS, PLAS, SGBT/SGCN, TOUR, ... but this might well need discussion in a thread of its own.

Problem is that for even more industry sets to come (?), the number of cargoes/labels will easily increase to a level which won´t be handled anymore by those vehicle sets which try to represent cargo loads graphically as best as possible. With the ironic outcome of limiting graphical representation with ever more distinct cargo types available.

regards
Michael

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:04 pm 
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michael blunck wrote:
With the ironic outcome of limiting graphical representation with ever more distinct cargo types available.

I've noticed that my willingness to add FIRS cargos was rather lower when I was also responsible for drawing them in the 3 or so vehicle sets I also maintain :twisted:

"Unfortunately" I automated the provision of cargo sprites in Road Hog, and am applying same to Iron Horse and a new ship set. "Fortunately" I haven't yet done that for CHIPS (the station set), where I have to draw them manually, so there is still some sort of brake operating :shock:

The other comments seem fair, but I can't think of anything to add in reply in this thread. There's no clean situation with cargos, neither all-generic nor all-specific really makes a satisfying game. Resp. sprites, I've found that if in doubt, a tarpaulin covers most cases :)

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:56 am 
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Quote:
IMO, a useful attempt would be to decouple ("private") cargo names / cargo descriptions from their ("global") labels whenever possible. E.g., FIRS didn´t need to introduce a new label METL (instead of TTD´s STEL) in the first place, and then could have been used STEL for every metal, e.g. for "nickel" (NICK in "arctic basic"), and "copper" (COPR in "tropic basic")
Am I reading this correct in using STEL for a copper cargo?

Now suppose you draw STEL as long steel H beams, copper doesn't look like that, if anything, it's the wrong colour. Re-using existing labels doesn't work either, I think.


I don't think there is a simple way out of this. You can always use generic cargoes, but then you can't have detailed economies like steeltown that has X variations of metals that you really don't want to throw onto a single cargo label STEL or such. Such economies are however never detailed in all aspects, there simply isn't enough room for it in 32 cargoes. As a result the "side" cargoes aren't split, and get merged into one general cargo, like "chemicals". If tomorrow someone decides to make a detailed economy about the chemical industry, we'll have a new set of detailed chemical cargoes added.

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 Post subject: Re: FIRS Cargo Labels
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:16 am 
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Alberth wrote:
mb wrote:
IMO, a useful attempt would be to decouple ("private") cargo names / cargo descriptions from their ("global") labels whenever possible. [...]

Am I reading this correct in using STEL for a copper cargo?

Why not? Andy could even use XXXX for cargo "copper". Only purpose of a "cargo label" is to map a certain cargo-ID defined in a cargo set to a cargo-ID in a vehicle set. The DWORD value of such a label is totally irrelevant. Only constraint is that it must be unique (for a combination c-set/v-set) to be mapped successfully.

Alberth wrote:
[...] steeltown that has X variations of metals that you really don't want to throw onto a single cargo label STEL or such.

You forgot to read further:

mb wrote:
O/c, there might be a need for new labels in economies with many similar cargoes, but in economies where there are no colliding cargo labels, introduction of redundant labels complicates things for vehicle set authors needlessly.

IIRC, "copper" is the only metal product in "basic tropic" and "in a hot country" economy, hence no collision with any other material. BTW, COPR was just an example, even more redundant labels are METL and STEL.

And BTW, take a look into our mess/list of cargo labels. There are already cargoes with no equivalence to their labels, and also the meaning of specific cargoes differ between different industry sets.

HTH
Michael

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