Docklands - 1.0 Released

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Re: Docklands

Post by Railwaymodeler » 26 Apr 2017 05:50

supermop wrote:
Railwaymodeler wrote:I downloaded unspooled and that works for me. Running unspooled along Docklands gives me exactly what I want.

I am using eGRVS which has horsecars and steam streetcars. I think it is a British set that has steam trams, but I am unsure of the name offhand. It has a few steam dummys that pull either one or two double deck cars, a few light industrial diesels, such as a Rapier loco, and a Hunslet Wagonmaster, as well as a loco that looks like a WWI trench locomotive. Plus a vertical boiler loco.
As far as I know, Zephyris has not been active since Roadtypes have been developed, so eGRVTS does not actually 'support' NRT. All of the trams in that set, whether steam or horse-drawn, would be functionally identical to the electric trams included, so there would be no differentiation in power supply by streetcar rail type. I considered forking eGRVTS myself to make a NRT version, but it is cc-by, not GPL, so I was wary of how the license would work. Furthermore, the set is quite complex for me to get my head around, so I figured best to wait until Zeph next has some free time. When I am able, I'd like to instead add some NRT specific vehicles to an OGFX+ RV fork or add-on.
I see. I thought the wireless streetcar tracks were merely a graphics change, that one could, technically, run anything over them.

NRT is still pretty new to me, though I have made very good use out of Docklands. I have noticed any road vehicle can be bought from a Docklands depot, so I assumed it worked the same with streetcars.
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Re: Docklands

Post by kamnet » 26 Apr 2017 06:18

supermop wrote:I considered forking eGRVTS myself to make a NRT version, but it is cc-by, not GPL, so I was wary of how the license would work. Furthermore, the set is quite complex for me to get my head around, so I figured best to wait until Zeph next has some free time.
According to Zepherys:
Zepherys wrote: Copyright
These sets are released under the latest version of the Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike Creative Commons; ie:
Use and distribute freely for non-commercial purposes crediting me, Zephyris (Richard Wheeler), as the author with a link to this thread (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=33415). Modifications and adaptations can be made so long as they credit me as the original author, are for non-commercial purposes and are released under the Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike Creative Commons license.
Effectively it's not any different than GPL, other than not using it for commercial purposes.
supermop wrote:When I am able, I'd like to instead add some NRT specific vehicles to an OGFX+ RV fork or add-on.
I'm sure Planetmaker & Co. would welcome this expansion.

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Re: Docklands

Post by supermop » 26 Apr 2017 14:39

kamnet wrote:Effectively it's not any different than GPL, other than not using it for commercial purposes.

My worry is that since I'd be using a lot of essentially GPL code, the resulting fork would need to be GPL. An eGRVTS fork, however, would need to be distributed under the respective CC license, and I believe a set can't have both (GPL does not require attribution nor does it prohibit commercial use).

The point may not be relevant, as I wrote my Trolleybi code 'from whole cloth' just by reading the specs/wiki, even though I later released the NewGRF as GPLv2 (I think, I may have forgotten to state a license yet...). In that case I should be able to use or replicate Trolleybi code and release it as CC-By or similar. There is still the obstacle of getting my head around Zeph's code to make the change, which sounds daunting to me, and I am sure he is planning on doing it better himself in the future.
kamnet wrote:supermop wrote:
When I am able, I'd like to instead add some NRT specific vehicles to an OGFX+ RV fork or add-on.


I'm sure Planetmaker & Co. would welcome this expansion.
Trolleybi is the first bit of this - hence it's stats are balanced against comparable OGFX+ trucks and buses. I'd like to add more types of trucks, plus maybe a 4th, 3.5th, or 0th generation of vehicles, and then move on to trams (OGFX+ Trams are pretty meager as is, let alone early non-electric trams). There are decisions to be made about how true to OGFX/vanilla style to remain to prevent becoming an eGRVTS-lite clone, for example, adding more or earlier generations, adding articulated vehicles, vastly increasing capacity, etc. I generally would like to cede the ground of robust, diverse generic RVs to Road Hog and eGRVTS, and let this set be a simple demonstration of RV types that lets you play a vanilla style game with NRT.

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Re: Docklands

Post by SimYouLater » 26 Apr 2017 20:16

supermop wrote:
kamnet wrote:Effectively it's not any different than GPL, other than not using it for commercial purposes.
My worry is that since I'd be using a lot of essentially GPL code, the resulting fork would need to be GPL. An eGRVTS fork, however, would need to be distributed under the respective CC license, and I believe a set can't have both (GPL does not require attribution nor does it prohibit commercial use).
Don't quote me on this (as in, don't assume I'm correct) but as far as I know all NML code is GPL by default as it is part of the GPL v2 license of OpenTTD. The only things in a NewGRF that can be given another license are:

1) Graphics, and
2) parts of the code which are not actually a nescessary part of the code framework AND are unique to the NewGRF.

So code-wise, using the names and graphics of the vehicles will require it to be Creative Commons, but using the NML framework of another NewGRF will not require the whole the whole thing to be GPL v2. If it did, all NewGRFs would require a GPL v2 license because the code framework is required to be GPL v2.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.

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Re: Docklands

Post by kamnet » 27 Apr 2017 02:35

NML's code and software may itself be GPL, but any code produced with it is not automatically under any license. It's just a tool. That would be akin to saying that if you write a document using Microsoft Word, then Microsoft holds the copyright to whatever you wrote.

As long as you wrote the code yourself (using whatever tools), you are free to release it under multiple licenses. You can always change licenses for future releases, but you cannot revoke a license for a specific revision of it once somebody has a copy of it and is using it.

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Re: Docklands

Post by Pyoro » 27 Apr 2017 11:51

If we're arguing law, the issue would probably be down to "threshold of originality", and that then depends on local copyright laws. In Germany, a GRF like at least the first version of EmptGRF with just the basic code needed to make it function probably won't be copyright-able, it's far too simple. In practice, although not the idea of the law, the line seems to mostly be drawn with economic reasons: it's not impossible that none of the GRF codes here would be protected in Germany that way, should anyone feeling like suing someone else ^^

Not that I'm a copyright lawyer, so maybe I got that completely wrong. Don't think so though.


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Re: Docklands

Post by SimYouLater » 27 Apr 2017 23:23

andythenorth wrote:Could just ask Zeph eh? :twisted:
Not sure about the circumstances of his current absence, but what if he doesn't come back? Since NML code is not required to be under any specific licence at all (according to kamnet, unless I misunderstood), the best option is to just code a fork under the cc-by license.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.

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Re: Docklands

Post by andythenorth » 28 Apr 2017 05:15

SimYouLater wrote:Not sure about the circumstances of his current absence, but what if he doesn't come back?
I dunno, I always like to check the right problem is being solved :roll:

Code: Select all

Zephyris: Last active: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:41 pm
I haven't asked him about licensing because I've lost track of what this thread is about, but whoever is proposing the eGRVTs fork could/should :twisted:

@SimYouLater - you're totally correct about a fork under CC license, simples eh? ;)

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Re: Docklands

Post by supermop » 28 Apr 2017 14:46

andythenorth wrote:I dunno, I always like to check the right problem is being solved

Code:
Zephyris: Last active: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:41 pm
I'm sure he is still alive and well, but I have taken his lack of commenting on NRT & eGRVTS to mean he does not currently have the time or interest to work on it, but may in the future.

andythenorth wrote:
 
I haven't asked him about licensing because I've lost track of what this thread is about, but whoever is proposing the eGRVTs fork could/should
Certainly people could do this - I simply determined when I considered it that I was not interested - between license, complex code base, low personal usage of eGRVTS, and the posibility that zephyris would have a better idea of how to implement it. I found it more worthwhile for me to take on something small and manageable that would have what I believed to be the greatest impact - new trolley buses and trucks, as this was a use case of NRT that was completely unexplored by other sets, and fairly easy to do.

As for what this thread is ostensibly about - I guess it is about the release of station-styled roadtypes, which I think work pretty well so far. I am a bit unhappy with the way the depots look with some CC though. It might be more useful to move discussion of NRT compatible RV sets to the NRT topic, or the development topics for eGRVTs, Trolleybi, OpenGFX+ RVs, etc.

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Re: Docklands

Post by Railwaymodeler » 29 Apr 2017 01:37

Strange. I ran a test game to try out Docklands as well as unspooled, and I could run streetcars on tracks without wires. I think this test game I started in 2000, with obsolete vehicles always available (What can I say? At MY companies, steam runs forever!), and also found that I could set parameters for Docklands while the game was running but not before.

Anyway, I then started a "Real" game (I.E. to actually play, not something small and quick for testing a GRF) and found that the wire-less rails were useless, nothing could run on them.

Vehicles that worked in the test game refused to work in the real one. I changed around (Theoretically) unrelated GRFs, but things like industries, ships, ojbects, I would assume would not affect road types?
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Re: Docklands

Post by supermop » 14 Feb 2018 01:13

New Version today:

As with Unspooled, Docklands now supports company colors on wire poles, and new features in NRT to prevent houses growing along Docklands roadtypes. Docklands is a simple set, and with these features, I feel it is complete enough to release as a '1.0' version now:
Attachments
docklands100.grf
New Version 1.0.0
(401.7 KiB) Downloaded 95 times
Docklands Source.7z
Sources
(640.06 KiB) Downloaded 50 times


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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by Diesel Power » 19 Feb 2018 13:36

Just tried the new docklands 1.0 and I've got no roads. The tram lines are there but the roads aren't. I haven't tried to pin down the fault yet. Just wanted to let you know...

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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by supermop » 20 Feb 2018 14:34

Diesel Power wrote:Just tried the new docklands 1.0 and I've got no roads. The tram lines are there but the roads aren't. I haven't tried to pin down the fault yet. Just wanted to let you know...
I can confirm the same on my end when using with unspooled - I'll have to look into it tonight. I guess the 1.0 release was premature!

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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by Diesel Power » 21 Feb 2018 00:53

I was using unspooled too but the bug remains even when unspooled is removed. Sorry to dampen your big release!

This is a great set and I've been creating some epic station yards with this along with unspooled and CHIPS. Any chance you could add catanery to the mud yard for roads and trams? At the moment I'm having to choose between looks and electricity.

The only other way to improve this set is to add a parameter so we can change the speed limits on roads and trams for both this set and unspooled. Then they will both be perfect!

Keep up the good work! It's very much appreciated.

P.S. I'm always available for testing (I have a lot of free time at work!)

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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by supermop » 21 Feb 2018 16:02

I Think I've fixed the error - works on its own but unsure if plays nice with full Unspooled yet.
docklands101.grf
Version 1.0.1
(403.9 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
Also caught and fixed the same sprite glitch at end-of-lines for wires that Unspooled used to have.
Diesel Power wrote:This is a great set and I've been creating some epic station yards with this along with unspooled and CHIPS. Any chance you could add catanery to the mud yard for roads and trams? At the moment I'm having to choose between looks and electricity.
I've though about it - I worry about using up too many slots, but I might add by parameter. For tram at least you can build regular electric tram over the mud road to kit-bash it a bit.
Diesel Power wrote:The only other way to improve this set is to add a parameter so we can change the speed limits on roads and trams for both this set and unspooled. Then they will both be perfect!
I'm working to add 'rosters' to Unspooled which may help a bit. For the docklands types, I wanted to makes them cheaper than Unspooled so it isn't prohibitive to build complex yards, but slower so they wouldn't be overpowered for the cost. I felt like 60 kmh was generous enough for industrial areas, but I could reconsider...

Best,

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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by Diesel Power » 24 Feb 2018 22:37

supermop wrote:I Think I've fixed the error - works on its own but unsure if plays nice with full Unspooled yet.
Seems to work OK with Unspooled so far...
supermop wrote:Diesel Power wrote:The only other way to improve this set is to add a parameter so we can change the speed limits on roads and trams for both this set and unspooled. Then they will both be perfect! I'm working to add 'rosters' to Unspooled which may help a bit. For the docklands types, I wanted to makes them cheaper than Unspooled so it isn't prohibitive to build complex yards, but slower so they wouldn't be overpowered for the cost. I felt like 60 kmh was generous enough for industrial areas, but I could reconsider...
The problem you have with speed limited roads is that eveyone has there own opinoin on what the speed limits should be. Setting a paramater to allow us to set the limit keeps everyone happy. I'd like to set the limit on whichever road the towns use to 30mph (the limit in towns in the UK), but i'm sure there's a diffrent limit in Oz or the US or wherever the player comes from. I'd set the limit on Docklands roads to 20mph which is the limit on most large industrial areas i've been to in my truck. It would also stop me from abusing there cheap costs!
supermop wrote:I'm working to add 'rosters' to Unspooled
That sound like a good plan. It allows people to use part of this set with another. As long as those of us only using this and Unspooled can still have access to the whole lot!

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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by Diesel Power » 16 Mar 2018 23:11

Spotted a sprite clash with docklands and unspooled.

Set unspooled to the full roster and docklands to use chips and ISR tiles and you lose the cobblestone tiles from docklands. I assume these sets are designed to work together as you wrote them both!

I'll try setting the unspooled roster to medium, see if that works...

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Re: Docklands - 1.0 Released

Post by supermop » 17 Mar 2018 19:26

Diesel Power wrote:Spotted a sprite clash with docklands and unspooled.

Set unspooled to the full roster and docklands to use chips and ISR tiles and you lose the cobblestone tiles from docklands. I assume these sets are designed to work together as you wrote them both!

I'll try setting the unspooled roster to medium, see if that works...
The Full Roster of Unspooled together with the full (chips & isr) docklands actually provides more types than NRT allows, so you'll lose something based on GRF order. I actually added the parameters to reduce selection because of this, so reducing one or the other should help.

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