Iron Horse trains - releases
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- anatolyeltsov
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
I've almost prepared Russian translation for Iron Horse but have some thoughts:
1. STR_NAME_SUFFIX_ALIGNMENT_CAR is nowhere used at the moment
2. Autocoach Set, Snowplough, Driving trailer, Driving Van trailer seems like are not proper names but at the same time they have no ability to add translation
3. Firebird, Blaze HST and Scorcher HST Passenger Wagons has strings like "%name% %van_type%" so in Russian it sounds bad - it would be cool to have ability to make string reversed - "%van_type% %name%" for these types of wagons but I don't know if it's even possible in an easy way
4. Maybe it would be cool to make STR_NAME_CONSIST_PARENTHESES in english.pylng as {STRING} {SILVER}({STRING}) to distinct main name and suffix. Just as an idea. I've tried GRAY and it looks bad but SILVER seems normal.
1. STR_NAME_SUFFIX_ALIGNMENT_CAR is nowhere used at the moment
2. Autocoach Set, Snowplough, Driving trailer, Driving Van trailer seems like are not proper names but at the same time they have no ability to add translation
3. Firebird, Blaze HST and Scorcher HST Passenger Wagons has strings like "%name% %van_type%" so in Russian it sounds bad - it would be cool to have ability to make string reversed - "%van_type% %name%" for these types of wagons but I don't know if it's even possible in an easy way
4. Maybe it would be cool to make STR_NAME_CONSIST_PARENTHESES in english.pylng as {STRING} {SILVER}({STRING}) to distinct main name and suffix. Just as an idea. I've tried GRAY and it looks bad but SILVER seems normal.
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Do you use invisible articulated parts for it and it is made from 3 parts per carriage? Because it sounds like it. Just add /3 to the problematic code, if it is the case.andythenorth wrote: ↑26 Mar 2021 19:57 bug in nml means pax car running costs are 3x what they are shown as in purchase menu
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My released NewGRFs:
You can find what I am planning next, or doing right now right in my developer diary.
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- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Nope, it's not that but thanks.
The nml bug is that invalid variable access (e.g. in purchase menu) will return first range result instead of callback failed or a similarly useful result.
This results in incorrect purchase menu running costs being displayed for certain Iron Horse vehicles. Incorrect running costs means that the balancing is wrong.
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
I am aware of this, so I never do balancing on the purchase menu, because ... it is kind of not helpful at the more complex codes. It behaves kind of differently, then I want.andythenorth wrote: ↑27 Mar 2021 12:23Nope, it's not that but thanks.
The nml bug is that invalid variable access (e.g. in purchase menu) will return first range result instead of callback failed or a similarly useful result.
This results in incorrect purchase menu running costs being displayed for certain Iron Horse vehicles. Incorrect running costs means that the balancing is wrong.
I hope, you get your rest and get back on the horse!
With best regards,
Špajdy.
My released NewGRFs:
You can find what I am planning next, or doing right now right in my developer diary.
Slovakia | lang : slovak | english
SLOVAK DISCORD SERVER I (and others Slovak and Czech creators) write there in Slovak about what I (ot they are) am planning. This invitation is valid for 100 users.
It is alive and well.
Špajdy.
My released NewGRFs:
You can find what I am planning next, or doing right now right in my developer diary.
Slovakia | lang : slovak | english
SLOVAK DISCORD SERVER I (and others Slovak and Czech creators) write there in Slovak about what I (ot they are) am planning. This invitation is valid for 100 users.
It is alive and well.
- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
"Public Service Announcement"
Iron Horse 2 running costs are tuned to FIRS cargo payment rates.
FIRS has always set passenger payment rate much higher than default OpenTTD rate.
There are reasons for this.
This may explain why players report it is hard to make profit with Iron Horse 2 passenger trains - these players probably aren't using FIRS
Never noticed this before - haven't played a game without FIRS for years
TL;DR:
Iron Horse 2 requires industry grf with higher passenger payment rates - FIRS or similar.
Iron Horse 2 running costs are tuned to FIRS cargo payment rates.
FIRS has always set passenger payment rate much higher than default OpenTTD rate.
There are reasons for this.
This may explain why players report it is hard to make profit with Iron Horse 2 passenger trains - these players probably aren't using FIRS
Never noticed this before - haven't played a game without FIRS for years
TL;DR:
Iron Horse 2 requires industry grf with higher passenger payment rates - FIRS or similar.
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Dunno why anyone wouldandythenorth wrote: ↑27 Mar 2021 22:16Never noticed this before - haven't played a game without FIRS for years
Currently working under the name 'reldred' on Github, and Discord.
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14:40 <orudge> I can't say I discriminate against any particular user
14:41 <Aegir> orudge: I can!
NFO/NML coder, part-time patch writer for JGRPP, and all round belligerent.
14:40 <orudge> I can't say I discriminate against any particular user
14:41 <Aegir> orudge: I can!
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Bug in NML? And I thought NML was this wonderful, bugless, unbreakable, lightning-fast tool that everyone was supposed to useandythenorth wrote: ↑26 Mar 2021 19:57 Explanation
- bug in nml means pax car running costs are 3x what they are shown as in purchase menu
The French Narrow Gauge Train Set is now released! Get it here
- Emperor Jake
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Couldn't you leave them in as a purely eyecandy element? It's not like the set doesn't have things like that already...
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
What about having restaurant cars make more money per car than luxury passenger cars, but only for a single restaurant car?Emperor Jake wrote: ↑30 Mar 2021 10:38Couldn't you leave them in as a purely eyecandy element? It's not like the set doesn't have things like that already...
Code: Select all
Locomotive = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Restaurant Car ($) = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($)
Locomotive = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Luxury Passenger Car ($) = Restaurant Car ($) = Restaurant Car = Restaurant Car = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($) = Passenger Car ($)
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- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Yes, that is pretty much the ideal model for restaurant cars.
It isn't possible in OpenTTD however - there's no method to achieve this outcome
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
chances of keeping the sprites for the restaurant cars in as a potential random sprite for the luxury pax cars, or too much work?
Something goes here, hell if I know.
- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Not a bad idea. The restaurant car sprites weren't new - they used to be used on luxury cars - if there was a string of about 5 or more luxury cars, one coach in the middle would use the restaurant sprite.
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
An admittedly hackish way to do this, would be to slightly increase luxury passenger coaches' capacity if a restaurant car is present in the consist.andythenorth wrote: ↑31 Mar 2021 12:38Yes, that is pretty much the ideal model for restaurant cars.
It isn't possible in OpenTTD however - there's no method to achieve this outcome
The French Narrow Gauge Train Set is now released! Get it here
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
Or similarly, what if the a restaurant car's capacity is a function of number of passenger cars in the consist? Something like 5 seats per luxury car, 2 per regular? Some amount that for a certain length of train, adding a restaurant car will give you more seats than one more passenger car.Snail wrote: ↑01 Apr 2021 13:23An admittedly hackish way to do this, would be to slightly increase luxury passenger coaches' capacity if a restaurant car is present in the consist.andythenorth wrote: ↑31 Mar 2021 12:38Yes, that is pretty much the ideal model for restaurant cars.
It isn't possible in OpenTTD however - there's no method to achieve this outcome
Both this and Snail's idea have the effect of favoring slammed full trains though, rather than some picturesque 'Glacier Express' winding its way through the Alps, but ultimately the most precious commodity in the game is always extra capacity...
Re: Iron Horse! 2.21.1 Released 9th March 2021
This would be easily attainable by limiting the bonus to the first, say, 6 luxury/passenger coaches.
The French Narrow Gauge Train Set is now released! Get it here
- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021
Iron Horse 2.22.0 now on Bananas.
As LC demonstrated, the set design of Iron Horse is fatally flawed for passenger transport.
I've spent 3 days trying to devise solutions, and I've concluded that it's unfixable for the current state of OpenTTD.
This is a release to try and correct the worst mistakes by deleting Restaurant Cars and Luxury Passenger Coaches.
I've left Express Railcars, HSTs and Very High Speed Trains in the set, but they may also need deleted.
I've pretty much lost enthusiasm for Iron Horse at this point.
I've had great suggestions or advice from maybe 20 people, but none of it squares the circle I'm trying to square.
Fundamentally players demand that the game is balanced, but the game can't be balanced.
For freight transport, the Iron Horse design is to ignore balancing, and level almost all wagons, and make choices purely visual.
But for pax transport this doesn't seem to work.
I'm not in a good place with this for whatever reason, it has become a real mental block.
I won't be working on Iron Horse until I can see a way out of this. Nor Road Hog or Unsinkable Sam.
-------------
2.22.0 Release
-------------
*Changes*
- deleted Restaurant Cars
- deleted Luxury Passenger Coaches
- removed cargo aging bonus from some wagon types that were using it
- removed cargo aging malus from Passenger Coaches
- removed cargo aging malus from Metro trains
*Fixes*
- Passenger Coaches running were too high by factor of 3 (purchase menu showed correct value, purchased vehicles used wrong value)
- door sprites out of place by 1 pixel for gen 6C Driving Van Trailer
As LC demonstrated, the set design of Iron Horse is fatally flawed for passenger transport.
I've spent 3 days trying to devise solutions, and I've concluded that it's unfixable for the current state of OpenTTD.
This is a release to try and correct the worst mistakes by deleting Restaurant Cars and Luxury Passenger Coaches.
I've left Express Railcars, HSTs and Very High Speed Trains in the set, but they may also need deleted.
I've pretty much lost enthusiasm for Iron Horse at this point.
I've had great suggestions or advice from maybe 20 people, but none of it squares the circle I'm trying to square.
Fundamentally players demand that the game is balanced, but the game can't be balanced.
For freight transport, the Iron Horse design is to ignore balancing, and level almost all wagons, and make choices purely visual.
But for pax transport this doesn't seem to work.
I'm not in a good place with this for whatever reason, it has become a real mental block.
I won't be working on Iron Horse until I can see a way out of this. Nor Road Hog or Unsinkable Sam.
-------------
2.22.0 Release
-------------
*Changes*
- deleted Restaurant Cars
- deleted Luxury Passenger Coaches
- removed cargo aging bonus from some wagon types that were using it
- removed cargo aging malus from Passenger Coaches
- removed cargo aging malus from Metro trains
*Fixes*
- Passenger Coaches running were too high by factor of 3 (purchase menu showed correct value, purchased vehicles used wrong value)
- door sprites out of place by 1 pixel for gen 6C Driving Van Trailer
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021
How about explicitly defined 'roles'? For example, the difference between a metro and a luxury coach is not (only) that the metro has a higher capacity at the cost of lower speed, but it is also more practical for short distances. (I mean, why would passengers want to use a train/bus with no santing space for a 10 min commute?) Ideally this should be reflected by the payments. Lets say trains intended for short rides would not only have higher capacity, but also a payment bonus under x days. IC trains would have this bonus over y days in transit, and suburbans between the two. Either this, or a 'punisment' outside their intended range. Restaurant cars should only have a gradually increasing effect starting at a high distance. Under that they should have no benefit, only costs.
I don't know if any of this can be actually done in the game without it being overly complicated, sadly I can't code (yet) so it's just an idea.
I don't know if any of this can be actually done in the game without it being overly complicated, sadly I can't code (yet) so it's just an idea.
- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021
There is a cargo aging factor that can be used, but no it doesn't do any of those things.Mikkamakka wrote: ↑07 Apr 2021 11:45 I don't know if any of this can be actually done in the game without it being overly complicated, sadly I can't code (yet) so it's just an idea.
I think I've figured out a solution for passenger coaches + restaurant cars, working on it currently.
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021
I think you got a bit wrong interpreted it.andythenorth wrote: ↑05 Apr 2021 21:35 As LC demonstrated, the set design of Iron Horse is fatally flawed for passenger transport.
Honestly, I didn't know how to write it... There has gathered a few problems, but I definitely don't think that anything is fatal here. On the contrary, I really like this set and I also liked the idea of adding these wagons. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have spent so much time testing these solutions. Earlier, when restaurant cars were added to PKP, there were also some problems with them. These have been resolved and I think it would be possible here as well.
The fact is, however, that the genesis of the problem is a bit deeper and goes back to FIRS itself. It is about increased rates for the transport of passengers and mail. They spoil the balance of the game with FIRS a lot. I wrote a whole list of wishes and complaints about FIRS a while back and didn't mention it there, and that's because there is an add-on that fixes it (Reduced Passengers Payment) and I didn't want to mess too much with your concept.
The problem is big, because in games without the mentioned add-on, all industrial transport is devoid of economic sense. Why should the player build a complex and time-consuming industrial network, when it is possible to build a single connection of two cities and earn much better on it? If someone plays offline and builds for nice views, it doesn't matter, but in the case of online games, such rates skew all the competitiveness of the game.
Back to the Iron Horse, I looked at some other train add-ons...
2cc, Auz Trains, Dutch Trains, Finnish Trains - they all have cars of different classes, some have restaurant and sleeping cars, but cargo aging is not used anywhere. In my opinion, this is a drawback, or at least a deficiency, that makes the transport revenue of the various wagons not different as expected.
Timberwolf's UK Trains, Polish PKP, V4 Trains - these add-ons use cargo aging and can be a good reference point. I would like to write it again: it was not a criticism. With all the great additions, including the Iron Horse, with all the work and heart you put into it, I don't even feel entitled to even think that way. If I thought this set was uncurious, I just wouldn't be writing here.
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.
- andythenorth
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Re: Iron Horse! 2.20.0 Released 5th April 2021
Test
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
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