[OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 3.0

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Transportman
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by Transportman »

Thanks for spotting and providing a fix, will include it somewhere this weekend.
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sunkencathedral
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by sunkencathedral »

Thanks for doing this rework of 2CC! I've now played some fairly lengthy (several decades) new games in order to try out the trains in various scenarios, and they're looking (and playing) great.

One suggestion I would make is that the default running costs (i.e. when the multiplier parameter is set to 1) seem to be quiet steep. Across all the new games I've tried with TrainsInNML and a multiplier of 1, I've only had a few train services that actually made a profit at all! Most train routes were losing quite a lot of money every year, even though they were fairly straightforward routes with good signalling. Making a profit seems to be much easier when I make the exact same kinds of routes using trains from other Grfs (or vanilla trains).

Of course, this isn't that big of a deal, because there is a parameter for the running cost multiplier after all. :) I now have it set to 1/2, and find this a much more comfortable setting for me. However, I'd still suggest that the running costs be lowered a little bit across the board, so that the default setting of 1 has a more 'average difficulty' feel that one would expect. The running costs at '1' are quite high and feel more like what I would have expected under a setting of '2' or higher.

Anyway, great work - looking forward to the next update!

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by Transportman »

sunkencathedral wrote:Thanks for doing this rework of 2CC! I've now played some fairly lengthy (several decades) new games in order to try out the trains in various scenarios, and they're looking (and playing) great.

One suggestion I would make is that the default running costs (i.e. when the multiplier parameter is set to 1) seem to be quiet steep. Across all the new games I've tried with TrainsInNML and a multiplier of 1, I've only had a few train services that actually made a profit at all! Most train routes were losing quite a lot of money every year, even though they were fairly straightforward routes with good signalling. Making a profit seems to be much easier when I make the exact same kinds of routes using trains from other Grfs (or vanilla trains).

Of course, this isn't that big of a deal, because there is a parameter for the running cost multiplier after all. :) I now have it set to 1/2, and find this a much more comfortable setting for me. However, I'd still suggest that the running costs be lowered a little bit across the board, so that the default setting of 1 has a more 'average difficulty' feel that one would expect. The running costs at '1' are quite high and feel more like what I would have expected under a setting of '2' or higher.

Anyway, great work - looking forward to the next update!
Thanks for the feedback. Costs need a major rework as there are some unbalances in it, but changing the whole base is quite easy. I assume you would want both Purchase and Running costs reduced with 50%?
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by sunkencathedral »

Transportman wrote:
sunkencathedral wrote:Thanks for doing this rework of 2CC! I've now played some fairly lengthy (several decades) new games in order to try out the trains in various scenarios, and they're looking (and playing) great.

One suggestion I would make is that the default running costs (i.e. when the multiplier parameter is set to 1) seem to be quiet steep. Across all the new games I've tried with TrainsInNML and a multiplier of 1, I've only had a few train services that actually made a profit at all! Most train routes were losing quite a lot of money every year, even though they were fairly straightforward routes with good signalling. Making a profit seems to be much easier when I make the exact same kinds of routes using trains from other Grfs (or vanilla trains).

Of course, this isn't that big of a deal, because there is a parameter for the running cost multiplier after all. :) I now have it set to 1/2, and find this a much more comfortable setting for me. However, I'd still suggest that the running costs be lowered a little bit across the board, so that the default setting of 1 has a more 'average difficulty' feel that one would expect. The running costs at '1' are quite high and feel more like what I would have expected under a setting of '2' or higher.

Anyway, great work - looking forward to the next update!
Thanks for the feedback. Costs need a major rework as there are some unbalances in it, but changing the whole base is quite easy. I assume you would want both Purchase and Running costs reduced with 50%?
Purchasing costs overall seem pretty good to me; it is mostly the running costs that are tough. Of course, it's not a problem for me anymore because I changed the running cost multiplier parameter to 1/2 and am happy with that. :) But I thought I'd make the suggestion in case other players use the default multiplier of 1 and are surprised by the difficulty.

As an example, I just tried starting a new map with that parameter set to 1, and built various trains to transport wheat and livestock from a few different (very productive) farms. Only one of the trains actually made a profit each year, and all the others were in the red by thousands of pounds at the end of each year (max I saw was -17,000). This was surprising to me when I first tried this newGRF, because they were quite typical train routes that would normally make a profit with other trains (like the vanilla trains or trains from other newGRFS). At first I thought I had maybe accidentally set the multiplier really high or something. :D But it was just at default. So maybe the running cost base could be adjusted so that, with the default multiplier of 1, the profits that can be earned from trains are a bit closer to what you can earn from them with vanilla/other trains. Or alternatively the readme could warn that this is a challenging newGRF at default settings (insofar as earning profits are concerned) so that players will know to expect a challenge and/or know to adjust the multiplier.

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by Rilder »

Speaking of costs, a slight, pointless thing but the first two passenger coaches that become available I think need to have their costs switched around, as the coach that carries 15 passengers is cheaper than the one that carries 10.

Image

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by Transportman »

Rilder wrote:Speaking of costs, a slight, pointless thing but the first two passenger coaches that become available I think need to have their costs switched around, as the coach that carries 15 passengers is cheaper than the one that carries 10.

Image
That is a known issue, which will be corrected with the entire rebalancing of the costs, as there are also other weird situations in there. I just don't know when I will fix it, but it will be fixed before the first stable release.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by Digitalfox »

Sweden SJ X200 has wrong sprites!

Unfortunately this time I don't have enough free to time to fix them (There's work to be done on the rear and front sprites)!

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta4

Post by Transportman »

And there is the fifth beta, with regional parameters and other small fixes, which are mainly related to those regional parameters. Get it on BaNaNaS and read the changelog below if you enjoy boring details:
  • Codechange: Also disable all wagons when no region is selected (closes #7159)
  • Codechange: Prepare for inclusion of regional and concept parameter
  • Codechange: Rename some things in preparation of issue #7133
  • Codechange: Some helper regions for Wagon availability in preparation of issue #7133
  • Doc: Updated readme
  • Feature: Additional wagons that depend on active regions (Graphics by Voyager One and Emperor Jake) (issue #7133)
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Diesel Railbusses
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Diesels
  • Feature: Regional parameter for DMUs
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Electric Railbusses
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Electrics
  • Feature: Regional parameter for EMUs
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Maglevs
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Metros
  • Feature: Regional parameter for several cargo wagons (issue #7133)
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Steam Railbusses
  • Feature: Regional parameter for Steamers
  • Feature: Regional parameter now also works for Coaches
  • Feature: Service car/caboose (Graphics by Voyager One) (closes #7133)
  • Feature: Some additional error checking
  • Fix #7108: DSB E tender was missing
  • Fix #7110: Filename caused warnings during compilation
  • Fix #7112: Steamer smoke missing
  • Fix #7138: China Transrapid mail livery fix (Thanks to Digitalfox for fix)
  • Fix #7167: SJ X2000 sprites were inconsistent
  • Fix #7168: No warning was shown when no region was selected
  • Fix #7186: BR Class 67 speed increased to 200 km/h
  • Fix r338: Engine name typo
  • Fix r347: Also update the base .pnml file when changing filenames
  • Fix r354: Rename some things
  • Fix r355: Australian Diesels became unavailable
  • Fix r355: Regional parameter not working for some Diesels because of climates_available still being set to ALL_CLIMATES
  • Fix r357: Typos in files
  • Fix r380: Set disabled itself even with regions enabled because of missing parentheses in #defines
  • Fix r386: Disable NewGRF when no regions are activated and better wording for error message
  • Fix: Brazil is with a z and not with an s
  • Fix: Some vehicles that were not included for no reason (Graphics by Voyager One and Emperor Jake)
  • Fix: TEP150 was no longer available
  • Fix: Various diesels were no longer available
  • Update: Translations from webtranslator
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by Netist »

Are there plans to add the option to disable speed limits on wagons? (Or am I just missing it?)

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by Transportman »

Netist wrote:Are there plans to add the option to disable speed limits on wagons? (Or am I just missing it?)
That can already be done by the game itself, under Settings, search for "Speed limits".
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by sunkencathedral »

Update on my thoughts about running costs:

Been playing some more long games and trying out a whole range of different trains. Lots of fun! However, I'm starting to notice that even with the running costs parameter set to 1/2, it is still very difficult to make a profit. I wasn't able to make any profit at all on most of my routes, even when trying a wide variety of trains. As such, I keep finding myself abandoning trains altogether in favour of road vehicles (or just using trains from different NewGRFs). I'll have to try the 1/4 parameter in my next game.

I know you're eventually going to overhaul all of the costs, so that might be something to consider - even at 1/2 running cost, it still seems too high (when compared to other train GRFs etc). Note however that I've not performed any precise comparisons of the numbers, and this is based entirely on the way the mod 'feels' when playing (which is important in its own way, perhaps). Hope this feedback helps when you are working on the prices! :)

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by Transportman »

sunkencathedral wrote:Update on my thoughts about running costs:

Been playing some more long games and trying out a whole range of different trains. Lots of fun! However, I'm starting to notice that even with the running costs parameter set to 1/2, it is still very difficult to make a profit. I wasn't able to make any profit at all on most of my routes, even when trying a wide variety of trains. As such, I keep finding myself abandoning trains altogether in favour of road vehicles (or just using trains from different NewGRFs). I'll have to try the 1/4 parameter in my next game.

I know you're eventually going to overhaul all of the costs, so that might be something to consider - even at 1/2 running cost, it still seems too high (when compared to other train GRFs etc). Note however that I've not performed any precise comparisons of the numbers, and this is based entirely on the way the mod 'feels' when playing (which is important in its own way, perhaps). Hope this feedback helps when you are working on the prices! :)
Thanks for your feedback, I will reduce the base cost factors to make things a bit easier.

I intend to work on it this weekend, so the coming weeks there might be some big changes in prices and more unbalances in nightly builds, but I hope to release RC1 with the new price balances this month.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by Eddy Arfik »

I'm using v5418 with running costs at 1 and can't see the problem myself, this set to me looks perfectly balanced against other sets. For example try loading NARS 2.5 alongside this, then sort purchase menu by running cost and you'll see what I mean.

Sidenote: in my current game with 94 trains last year income was €174,571,730 with running costs of €7,811,514, thats income/cost ratio of 22 to 1.

Edit: A good reason to not change the global running cost factors is this: right now we can scale the costs over a large range between 1/16 and 16x using the parameter, where 1/4 approximates the baseset vehicle costs, 1x is balanced against other sets, and 16x presents a real challenge. If the 1x costs are reduced, then 1/8 and 1/16 become almost 0 and 16x is still quite low, ie: the range for players to adjust costs to suit their playing style will be greatly narrowed.
Change NewGRF parameters wrote: You can use this setting to increase or decrease the running costs of the vehicles in this set
maybe add to this "1/4 represents original TTD costs"

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by Transportman »

Can you check with the latest push build if the base costs are still fine? I changed the costs for all vehicles except coaches and wagons, so it might be that those base costs are no longer right.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-beta5

Post by Eddy Arfik »

Tested with v5432, again sorting purchase list by running cost, nothing seems greatly out of place in terms of cost vs performance, base cost over entire set is roughly the same as in the older version.

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-RC1

Post by Transportman »

St Nicholas has left the Netherlands, but he has left me a note to give you this gift. That's right, RC1 has arrived, featuring cargo support for Toyland, FIRS, ECS and YETI, a reworked cost scheme and other changes is balancing. The download will be available from the first post and BaNaNaS shortly.

If you want to upgrade your game to the newest version, keep in mind that I have removed all vehicles that were kept in for compatibility reasons, so first replace those vehicles before upgrading. Also, electric trains were able to run on unelectrified tracks because of a bug, so don't be surprised if some trains come to an halt after upgrading.

Full changelog:
  • 1.0-RC1 (06/12/2014)
    ----------------------
  • Change: File rename and Generation 1 Open Wagon with gray cargo (closes #7253)
  • Change: Vehicles with length 10 are now defined as 8-2 instead of 3-4-3, as there were graphical issues in depots (closes #7206)
  • Codechange: Add SAB3 railtype label to Metro railtypetable-entry (closes #7262)
  • Codechange: Remove obsolete vehicles
  • Codechange: Updated cargotable
  • Feature #7164: Support for Toyland, FIRS, ECS and YETI (also closes #7268)
  • Feature #7194: Changed costs for engines and metros
  • Feature #7194: Changed costs for wagons and coaches
  • Feature #7207: Enable auto-refitting at stations (closes #7207)
  • Feature: Changed costs for all vehicles excluding coaches and wagons (issue #7194)
  • Feature: Different graphics for the Russia RZD M62 (grapics by Colossal404)
  • Feature: Modified properties for most passenger coaches (issue #7040)
  • Feature: More animated vehicles (Graphics by Emperor Jake and Voyager One) (issue #6980)
  • Feature: Type 2 boxcars for Gen2, Gen3 and Gen4 (graphics by Emperor Jake) (closes #7133)
  • Fix #7233: AGV sprite order was switched for N and S driving vehicles.
  • Fix #7252: Cargo capacity callback for cargo wagons to prevent capacity from changing depending on cargo.
  • Fix #7308: Set service car capacity to 0 as it resulted in the car carrying passengers (also closes #7310)
  • Fix: Alignments of several vehicles (closes #7231 and #7232)
  • Fix: Electric vehicle track type was not set to ELRL
  • Fix: Template for vehicles with length 10 was wrong
  • Fix: Vehicle ID for Gen1 Boxcar was not properly set
  • Update: Translations from webtranslator
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-RC1

Post by aantono »

How does one find out which vehicles are the obsolete?

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-RC1

Post by Transportman »

aantono wrote:How does one find out which vehicles are the obsolete?
You can try upgrading, if it goes without error, you don't have them. If you do get an error, you might have one of those vehicles running around (depends on the error), and you need to reload your game with the old version to replace them.

The following vehicles have had a replacement during development, making the old versions of those vehicles obsolete (they will have Obsolete in their name when you check their information):
4-4-0 'American' (Steam)
Brooklyn Union Gate Car (Metro)
Budapest 1894 Stock (Metro)
Chicago L Northwest Elevated 1907 Stock (Metro)
Berlin U-Bahn C II (Metro)
4-6-0 'Ten-wheeler' (Steam)
UP EMD DDA40X (Diesel)
Pennsylvania Railroad FF-1 (Electric)
Milwaukee Road EP-2 Bipolar (Electric)
Pennsylvania Railroad GG-1 (Electric)
DSB E (Steam)
UP 4000 'Big Boy' (Steam)
UP EMD DDA40X (Diesel)
Pennsylvania Railroad FF-1 (Electric)
Milwaukee Road EP-2 Bipolar (Electric)
Pennsylvania Railroad GG-1 (Electric)
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-RC1

Post by Transportman »

I just placed RC2 on Bananas, which contains some further refinements to the coaches and wagons in this set. Also, some more bug fixes. The full changelog is below:
  • 1.0-RC2 (07/02/2015)
    --------------------
  • Change: DB 145 changed to DB 185 TRAXX (closes #7375)
  • Doc: Someone deserves a thank you
  • Feature: Further refinements of coach properties (issues #7359 and #7373)
  • Fix #7358: Some changes to passenger coach properties
  • Fix #7362: Wrong template used for mail coaches in AGVs
  • Fix #7373: Wagon property refinements
  • Fix #7427: Mixing of MUWAGS was possible when track sets allowed multi-powered lines
  • Fix: Speedmail coach carried passengers instead of mail
  • Update: Translations from webtranslator
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML - Current version: 1.0-RC2

Post by sunshare »

because when I update the GRF I get the poster have trains that can have problems like silo wagon?

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