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 Post subject: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:32 pm 
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Engineer
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Hi. I had strange idea of playing OPENTTD again after some time break (love the progress and development) but now with 32bpp graphic. Sad to say that even after so many months of adding it to game there is only one full set? zBase i mean. I see many, many others which are started like RAWR (great looking) or goldrush (epic aswell) but after 1 beta release its dead. Am i missing something or really no one can finish modern graphic set for new players who probably would come to this game?

Or maybe i'm missing some sets?

If finishing set is problem why so many peaople start on their own and just quit rather than start as group and make sth complete?


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:48 pm 
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Yes, zBase is the only complete set of 32bpp graphics.

Just because there hasn't been a new release on a project in a year doesn't mean it is dead. Most people who are working on sets have jobs, family and other priorities. Nobody is paid to develop add-ons for OpenTTD, so it moves as fast as life allows those individuals to go.

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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:22 pm 
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Hmm i get that but its a little strange that somehow 10 people start new project and dont finish it rather than do together 1 or 2 complete set. I mean susually there is some kind of leader in community who grab all togetehr and do stuff ;)

That + dead roadmap on wiki page made me wonder about future and development process. I would totally pay for this on steam ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:01 am 
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There are many reasons.

The first, clearest one, is that 32bpp is simply:
- a lot of work

- requires knowledge/willpower to learn using 3D software (unless you want to hand draw the 32bpp which might actually be a great idea due to the following points)

- constantly fighting technical issues which were not nearly as problematic with drawn graphics
* vehicles have different lengths on diagonals - you want to make one 3D model, not two ... with drawing you draw 4-8 views regardless so it is not really an issue there
* slopes are actually one huge hack - making tunnels, bridges and other slope related things is just wtf because the actual 3D height is different for those things
* everything must be with hard edges (no antialiasing) - this alone might seem like a tiny thing, but it means you HAVE to render everything a bit bigger, and then crop it in postproduction programs like After Effects for me. This just adds a ton to ALL of the problems and adds a lot of work. Things like railtypes are just "more proper" to do this way, but ground tiles do seriously BAD things if they have semi-transparent edges. Fun fact with ground tiles: Nobody has yet made a proper x4 or x2 zoom tile shape mask. (the exact pixel shape how should each sloped tile look like so they would all fit together properly)
* company colours do not support anti-aliasing - this just demolishes any nice rendered graphics unless you use the company colour mask on the whole sprite
* the resulting graphics actually look visually WORSE than classic PROFESSIONAL 8bpp graphics from 1994-1998 - and NewGRFs made in 8bpp in that fashion to fit the old graphics. Not a single 32bpp project looks good in x1 and hardly even x2 zoom at the moment. Also, zbase has set a terrible example of how not to do graphics and many authors are/were afraid to even try 32bpp.
* once you start doing 32bpp with extra zoom, the NewGRFs quickly have hundreds of megabytes so people often do not even want to download them, for example putting 300 MB RAWR on a server just means almost nobody will want to connect.
* you also need to have 8bpp sprites and converting them from 32bpp is super clunky. Unless you just want to say "f*** you" to anybody with 8bpp blitter like Pikka does with Pineapple (transparent 8bpp sprites) without even trying to make 8bpp there. (which again, is extra work) ... and actually, I think if someone finds a good way to make 8bpp from 32bpp images, it could be a really interesting project because the TTD colour scheme would remain, just with more pixels. Like the polish set shows, it fits and looks nice at the same time.

Why do we not assemble and make one nice project? Well first off there is not really anybody to assemble with, second each of us spends free time on making our own dream, and the dream apparently was not collective work for any of us. We would also have to agree on a GPL licence probably - and that means providing full source of all 3D things and I personally do not even want to hear about that idea. From huge file sizes, through each person having differently messy 3D projects, to the fact that a 3D file is a lot more reusable for your own use/or even selling 3D files, than sprite pictures. What you suggest would be very nice and obviously the most productive way, but I personally have no interest in doing that.

I would not hesitate saying that gold rush is a cute mockup but believing/relying on it actually becoming reality and released is very naive to say the least. At the same time I can say that RAWR is pretty dead - lot of work, not great result - , I have started BRIX instead which has a great visual concept. In the last couple of weeks I actually did decide I will give 32bpp/EZ graphics for OpenTTD one more try, and I am working on a completely new train set. After that is done, I will probably get RAWR to version 0.0.2 (I actually had it almost done before I stopped working on it earlier this year - 0.0.2 adds bridges and removes a s*** of bugs. Also a lot of improvements to the terrain were made), and getting BRIX done would be a dream come true. Again, all it takes is insane amount of time and effort, but what I get from it is knowledge, which makes it worth it. :) now just to find the time!

Edit: the chinese stuff Leou makes is nice. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:10 pm 
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V453000 :) wrote:

In the last couple of weeks I actually did decide I will give 32bpp/EZ graphics for OpenTTD one more try, and I am working on a completely new train set. After that is done, I will probably get RAWR to version 0.0.2 (I actually had it almost done before I stopped working on it earlier this year - 0.0.2 adds bridges and removes a s*** of bugs. Also a lot of improvements to the terrain were made), and getting BRIX done would be a dream come true. Again, all it takes is insane amount of time and effort, but what I get from it is knowledge, which makes it worth it. :) now just to find the time!



One more try? I though your sets were pretty darn epic.


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:42 am 
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R2T9 wrote:
V453000 :) wrote:

In the last couple of weeks I actually did decide I will give 32bpp/EZ graphics for OpenTTD one more try, and I am working on a completely new train set. After that is done, I will probably get RAWR to version 0.0.2 (I actually had it almost done before I stopped working on it earlier this year - 0.0.2 adds bridges and removes a s*** of bugs. Also a lot of improvements to the terrain were made), and getting BRIX done would be a dream come true. Again, all it takes is insane amount of time and effort, but what I get from it is knowledge, which makes it worth it. :) now just to find the time!



One more try? I though your sets were pretty darn epic.


Maybe some prominent authors here would benefit from having Patreon sponsors for their various projects? Similar to how many open source contributors go about it nowdays? Might be something to consider. Maybe the idea warrants it's own thread? Just an idea. I agree here that RAWR and some other projects on here look amazing and show tremendous progress & potential.

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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:59 pm 
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dequire wrote:
Maybe some prominent authors here would benefit from having Patreon sponsors for their various projects? Similar to how many open source contributors go about it nowdays? Might be something to consider. Maybe the idea warrants it's own thread? Just an idea. I agree here that RAWR and some other projects on here look amazing and show tremendous progress & potential.


There was https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... escription this. It was 2015. I do not know how much the scene has changed. Perhaps the goal was not well structured and having lower goal amount and different pledges would have worked. In this case Patreon is worth a try.

It could be also that just its artistic style did not appeal to enough people, or there are not enough people around this scene or just not enough people care about higher resolution graphics.

I personally do not care about high resolution graphics but I likely would support somebody who would like to build a nice building set that aligns with my taste (with an open licence allowing derivations that's it). Meanwhile I have to do it by my self within the time I have for it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Location: São Luís-Maranhão-Brasil.
kamnet wrote:
Yes, zBase is the only complete set of 32bpp graphics.

Just because there hasn't been a new release on a project in a year doesn't mean it is dead. Most people who are working on sets have jobs, family and other priorities. Nobody is paid to develop add-ons for OpenTTD, so it moves as fast as life allows those individuals to go.


Hi Kamnet. Zbase complete set of 32 bpp?

But don't have Crossover !!! ;(


Attachments:
Crossover_400px-OpenTTD_32bpp.png
Crossover_400px-OpenTTD_32bpp.png [ 123.26 KiB | Viewed 628 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:51 am 
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Tycoon
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Scorpio-BRZ wrote:
kamnet wrote:
Yes, zBase is the only complete set of 32bpp graphics.

Just because there hasn't been a new release on a project in a year doesn't mean it is dead. Most people who are working on sets have jobs, family and other priorities. Nobody is paid to develop add-ons for OpenTTD, so it moves as fast as life allows those individuals to go.


Hi Kamnet. Zbase complete set of 32 bpp?

But don't have Crossover !!! ;(


What do you mean by "crossover"?

_________________
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
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Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 am 
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Engineer
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kamnet wrote:
Scorpio-BRZ wrote:
kamnet wrote:
Yes, zBase is the only complete set of 32bpp graphics.

Just because there hasn't been a new release on a project in a year doesn't mean it is dead. Most people who are working on sets have jobs, family and other priorities. Nobody is paid to develop add-ons for OpenTTD, so it moves as fast as life allows those individuals to go.


Hi Kamnet. Zbase complete set of 32 bpp?

But don't have Crossover !!! ;(


What do you mean by "crossover"?


Sorry my interpretation.


Crossover = rail gates = gated crossing


Attachments:
Sem nome, 1º Jan 1925.png [58.71 KiB]
Not downloaded yet
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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:09 am 
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Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 6:25 pm
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Location: London-ish.
IMO rendered graphics need a dedicated renderer which is aware of TTD conventions. As well as the things V453000
mentions above with vehicle dimensions, no transparency in company colour masks and the like, you've also got:

  • Details need to be scaled differently at different zoom levels. A single-pixel headlight or window frame at 1x becomes a monstrous floodlight or girder at 4x. But if those details are appropriately sized at 4x, they're invisible zoomed out and you get an indistinct blob rather than a vehicle.
  • If you anti-alias your 8bpp sprites, whatever does it needs to be aware of TTD palette features like company colours and animated ranges. If you don't anti-alias them, you lose most of the detail and/or they end up looking very speckly.
  • "Flat" 32bpp company colour masks (a single value for all company-coloured pixels) give very bad results on some colours, red being a particularly noticeable example. You need to be able to produce a shaded mask as an output of the rendering process, and make sure it works together with the base sprite.
  • Unless you do a total conversion, your rendered vehicles will look out of place against the pixel art world or vice versa. (This is more of a personal preference. I like the TTD world to look drawn, not rendered!)

I've spent a fair amount of time working on these ideas with my road vehicle set, but I still don't think I'm entirely there - the shading isn't as good as a hand-drawn set and IMO my vehicles only look natural at 2x: zoom in and they're a bit plain and blocky, zoom out and they have a tendency toward the "mess of pixels" effect compared to properly drawn 1x art. It's also a persistent source of annoyance that my attempt to automatically emphasise small details for the 1x zoom never seems to be able to get the headlights symmetrical!


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Tycoon
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Scorpio-BRZ wrote:
Crossover = rail gates = gated crossing


No, gated crossings sprites are not included because they're not included in original game.

The gated crossings is provided via a NewGRF rail set.

_________________
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
Image

Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Engineer
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Location: São Luís-Maranhão-Brasil.
kamnet wrote:
Scorpio-BRZ wrote:
Crossover = rail gates = gated crossing


No, gated crossings sprites are not included because they're not included in original game.

The gated crossings is provided via a NewGRF rail set.



All right Kamnet. I'm not programmer, but anybody can make one GRF Crossings gate 32bpp or no ?

chers


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 Post subject: Re: 32bpp sets
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:04 am 
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Scorpio-BRZ wrote:
kamnet wrote:
Scorpio-BRZ wrote:
Crossover = rail gates = gated crossing


No, gated crossings sprites are not included because they're not included in original game.

The gated crossings is provided via a NewGRF rail set.



All right Kamnet. I'm not programmer, but anybody can make one GRF Crossings gate 32bpp or no ?

chers


Sure, make some graphics ill code it for you.

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