Abellio wins Greater Anglia franchise

[NoMorePacers]

I find it odd that this discussion has gone from the new Abellio Greater Anglia franchise to WI-FI on trains and buses...

[Dave]

I find it odd that this discussion has gone from the new Abellio Greater Anglia franchise to WI-FI on trains and buses...

I'm glad you've waited 12 days to tell us so!

It's a very simple jump, since the GA franchise called for franchise-wide wifi installation...

[NoMorePacers]

Wi-fi installation will probably only be implemented on the important lines, but I am open to correction. Also, Dave,

[Pilot]

As has been discussed (and is in the original article), Free WiFi will be available on all trains.

[NoMorePacers]

Right. Now then, what'll happen to the 90+MK3+DVT combos? And the 317s and 321s?

[Pilot]

Right. Now then, what'll happen to the 90+MK3+DVT combos? And the 317s and 321s?

Well, the 90s could be used on freights (maybe if this Overhead Electrification down to Southampton ever goes ahead, they'd be of some us, but freight operators aren't the biggest fans of Electrics, for obvious reasons), the Mk3s are pretty useless unless they are converted to have powered sliding doors, in which case, they may be used by Chiltern or ATW (if they wanted more local hauled sets), but don't forget, there is gonna be a massive surplus of Mk3s soon when the HSTs are retired from some operators (of course, some of going to ScotRail, however, I believe the sets will be shortened), the DVTs fate is probably tied to the fate of the Mk3s.

The Units are a little more flexible, I heard the 315s could be cascaded to the Valleys (if that ever gets electrified), so the 317s could possibly join them. The 321s, possibly Scotland (and converted to 320s) or possibly Bristol area... I'm purely speculating with my ideas of where they're going, I don't have a clue what is actually going to happen, but it makes some form of sense.

Of course, there are some people with better knowledge of what is actually going to happen than myself, but they too may have no idea. They may all just be scrapped!

[NoMorePacers]

Right. Now then, what'll happen to the 90+MK3+DVT combos? And the 317s and 321s?

Well, the 90s could be used on freights (maybe if this Overhead Electrification down to Southampton ever goes ahead, they'd be of some us, but freight operators aren't the biggest fans of Electrics, for obvious reasons)

Fair enough, most if not all freight terminals off the WCML, GEML and NLL are unelectrified, unless you know of any on the ECML, MML, or GWML that are electrified (I know Felixstowe isn't electrified and the MML electrification only goes to Bedford and GWML electrification only goes as far as Heathrow Airport (well Airport Junction, but I'm simplifying))?

the Mk3s are pretty useless unless they are converted to have powered sliding doors, in which case, they may be used by Chiltern or ATW (if they wanted more local hauled sets)

I wouldn't think Chiltern or ATW would want more LHCS stock, rather, they would get rid of it! Chiltern are getting the LO 172's, when the GOBLIN gets wires and the new Class 710s (basically 4 car versions of the new Crossrail trains, going on the lines out of Liverpool Street, Romford to Upminster (to get rid of the 315s and 317s, coincidentally), Watford DC line (to free up 378s for use to strengthen services on the rest of the Overground network) and the GOBLIN once that's electrified) are delivered. The South Wales Main Line is getting electrified (to coincide with GWML electrification) and possibly the North Wales Coast Line Don't think the Marches are though.

but don't forget, there is gonna be a massive surplus of Mk3s soon when the HSTs are retired from some operators (of course, some of going to ScotRail, however, I believe the sets will be shortened), the DVTs fate is probably tied to the fate of the Mk3s.

True. ScotRail are getting HST sets, but they'll be shortened to some sets having 4 and some sets having 5 coaches. The rest will probably hit the scrapyard.

The Units are a little more flexible, I heard the 315s could be cascaded to the Valleys (if that ever gets electrified), so the 317s could possibly join them.

On 16 July 2012 the UK Government announced plans to extend the electrification of the network at a cost of £350 million. This was at the same time of the announcement of electrification of the South Wales Main Line from Cardiff to Swansea. This would also see investment in new trains and continued improvements to stations. It is thought to start between 2014 and 2019.

That should answer your question about the Valley Lines. Assuming that's true, I think your idea is perfectly feasible.

The 321s, possibly Scotland (and converted to 320s) or possibly Bristol area... I'm purely speculating with my ideas of where they're going, I don't have a clue what is actually going to happen, but it makes some form of sense.

Scotland is getting the new Class 385 Hitachi units, which'll be going on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk, Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts, Alloa/Dunblane via Stirling, and displacing the 380's on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carstairs and the Edinburgh to North Berwick lines, and getting rid of the 314s on the Cathcart Circle. The 380s, in turn, will be used on the North Clyde and Inverclyde lines, which in turn replace the existing 320s and the 318s, which will in turn replace the remaining 314s. The 314s will be practically 40 years old by then, so expect them to be scrapped. So Scotland will have no need for them. Bristol... well, the Thames Valley lines will be electrified along with the GWML, and GWR have a bunch of 387s on order, which'll go on the Thames Valley, which in turn displace the 165s and 166s, which'll go to the Bristol, Devon and Cornwall lines to replace the Sprinters and Pacers. Pacers are probably heading for scrap, and the Sprinters are going to Northern I think. So that area won't be needing new trains and isn't due for electrification anytime soon.

Of course, there are some people with better knowledge of what is actually going to happen than myself, but they too may have no idea. They may all just be scrapped!

True, what I wrote above are my assumptions based on real life projects. I could be completely wrong though, but I hope it helps.

[Dave]

Electrification of the Goblin will make a massive difference. There aren't enough paths along the main NLL and GEML to get from the north into Ripple Lane/Dagenham etc.

Once you have the line electrified all the way from Mossend, Warrington, Trafford, etc to Ripple Lane you can run end to end electric trains which is the preferred method these days (they don't have the flexibility to swap off electrics for diesels).

So I'd say there's a pretty sound future for the 90s and 91s after they've been displaced off the main line work. Add that to the electrification down to Bristol and there's loads of scope. I'd like to see Portbury wired but I'm sure I'm dreaming.

Felixstowe-Peterborough-Nuneaton also a priority in my eyes but I'm not head of network rail!

[Pilot]

Once you have the line electrified all the way from Mossend, Warrington, Trafford, etc to Ripple Lane you can run end to end electric trains which is the preferred method these days (they don't have the flexibility to swap off electrics for diesels).

So I'd say there's a pretty sound future for the 90s and 91s after they've been displaced off the main line work. Add that to the electrification down to Bristol and there's loads of scope. I'd like to see Portbury wired but I'm sure I'm dreaming.

Indeed the 90s and 91s could find additional use on freight, though would a 91 not be a little bit over the top for a container train? I know they were trialled when new, but I'm not sure what the outcome was, as to whether it was Viable or not. Also, I'm pretty sure Freightliner/DB Cargo have about 10/15 Class 90s in storage at Crewe still (indeed, there used to be line ups like this), so I'm unsure as to whether there is the requirement for more Electrics for freight. Of course, like you said the Electrification of the GOBLIN could all change that!

Of course, we also have the Class 88's (Picture here), that have been ordered by DRS, which include a diesel Engine, so maybe getting to places like Portbury with mostly electric traction will be possible with these.

but I'm not head of network rail!

Why not Dave?! I'm sure you'd be the perfect head of NR

[NoMorePacers]

but I'm not head of network rail!

Why not Dave?! I'm sure you'd be the perfect head of NR

Yes, sure. Just make sure the Chancellor is ready to allow NR to increase it's deficit spending.

In all seriousness, GOBLIN would be easy. Wires at both ends, plus at South Tottenham. Would be like dot-to-dot. Just need to wire up the Transpennine, Cross Country, Midland Main Line, Newcastle-Carlisle, Birmingham-Peterborough, the bits from Springburn and Cumbernauld to Edinburgh Waverley, Ely-Peterborough, Breckland Line, the bit to Ipswich, the Felixstowe branch, the South Humberside Main Line, Immingham Dock, Drax, Eggborough and Ferrybridge power stations, and the line to Hull; bingo, electric freight trains can use the ECML and MML.

[Pilot]

In all seriousness, GOBLIN would be easy.

You do understand that the GOBLIN is already being done?

Just need to wire up the Transpennine, Cross Country, Midland Main Line, Newcastle-Carlisle, Birmingham-Peterborough, the bits from Springburn and Cumbernauld to Edinburgh Waverley, Ely-Peterborough, Breckland Line, the bit to Ipswich, the Felixstowe branch, the South Humberside Main Line, Immingham Dock, Drax, Eggborough and Ferrybridge power stations, and the line to Hull; bingo, electric freight trains can use the ECML and MML.

And a couple of those routes are already being done;
- Transpennine between Manchester and York (very difficult to get freight there, due to increase in frequency during the day).
- Midland Main Line as far as Sheffield, maybe a bit of infill required to Donny and South Kirkby Jn.
- Hull Trains are going to privately fund Temple Hirst Jn to Hull, so there's that bit (but other than Hull Docks, there isn't much freight that goes that way AFAIK)
- An "Electric Spine" has been proposed from Southampton to Nuneaton (via Basingstoke, Didcot, Aynho Jn, Leamington Spa and Coventry), as well as the reinstated E-W link between Oxford, Bletchley and and Bedford, this is the freight project taking priority over all others (such as Felixstowe and Ipswich)

And an answer to a couple of your other suggestions.
- The South Humberside Main Line, which I'm going to refer to as the Cleethorpes line as it has no right to be called a Main Line. No need to electrify the whole thing for freight, it all terminates at Immingham. The majority of this is Coal, the need for Coal traffic in this country is rapidly drying up. Also, the other traffic on the line is a little bit of an issue as well, you have Landfill traffic to Roxby, well, that's going to disappear as soon as the landfill is full, so there is no point electrifying that branch. The Steel Traffic to Scunthorpe is also an issue, as there is massive issue with British Steel currently, and whilst Scunthorpe appears to be relatively unaffected (indeed, it hasn't been in the news as much as Redcar), that will surely have it's time.
- Breckland Line? What use does the line between Ely and Norwich have to freight (There is about 3/4 stone trains a day)? Especially when you can electrify Ipswich - Ely - Peterborough instead.
- Springburn and Cumbernauld to Edinburgh Waverley, there is again no need for this, the line through Shotts is being electrified as part of the EGIP (once the route via Falkirk High is done), and this would be much better for any freight coming from the ECML, with a junction coming in just south of Mossend (a large Container Terminal in Glasgow). However, there isn't much freight that comes this way currently with Diesel traction, so there would be very little extra with Electric traction.

[NoMorePacers]

The 'solutions' I suggested were namely ways of perhaps freeing up some capacity (even if it was just a few paths) on the WCML and NLL, which are basically at full capacity.

[Redirect Left]

- Transpennine between Manchester and York (very difficult to get freight there, due to increase in frequency during the day).

Whenever that is finally completed. Expected completion date just keeps going up and up.

[Pilot]

- Transpennine between Manchester and York (very difficult to get freight there, due to increase in frequency during the day).

Whenever that is finally completed. Expected completion date just keeps going up and up.

I'm just looking forward to the introduction of the Loco-Hauled Rakes, 5-Car sets with a Class 68 on the front, just hope the Mk5s are as good as the old Mk3s!

[Redirect Left]

- Transpennine between Manchester and York (very difficult to get freight there, due to increase in frequency during the day).

Whenever that is finally completed. Expected completion date just keeps going up and up.

I'm just looking forward to the introduction of the Loco-Hauled Rakes, 5-Car sets with a Class 68 on the front, just hope the Mk5s are as good as the old Mk3s!

Yeah. I'm a little confused, I always thought in the modern era, we were trying to get away from loco hauled units, guess not.
Apparently those loco hauled ones will be on Transpennine North routes, so I might get to see some of them. I'm also hoping Transpennine Express will also not use some space on these new trains for First Class, it's 2016. We shouldn't seperate people by how rich they are on trains, especially when if you knocked that out you'd fit far more normal seats than you would 1st class seats*

Also the Class 68s, aren't they the ones that have a habit of self combustion? Hope they've ironed out that glitch by the time TPE get some!

*Before someone tries that, yes I have used first class. It certainly was not worth the price shift, only did it once!

[Pilot]

Whenever that is finally completed. Expected completion date just keeps going up and up.

I'm just looking forward to the introduction of the Loco-Hauled Rakes, 5-Car sets with a Class 68 on the front, just hope the Mk5s are as good as the old Mk3s!

Yeah. I'm a little confused, I always thought in the modern era, we were trying to get away from loco hauled units, guess not.
Apparently those loco hauled ones will be on Transpennine North routes, so I might get to see some of them. I'm also hoping Transpennine Express will also not use some space on these new trains for First Class, it's 2016. We shouldn't seperate people by how rich they are on trains, especially when if you knocked that out you'd fit far more normal seats than you would 1st class seats*

Also the Class 68s, aren't they the ones that have a habit of self combustion? Hope they've ironed out that glitch by the time TPE get some!

*Before someone tries that, yes I have used first class. It certainly was not worth the price shift, only did it once!

Class 70s were the ones which had a habit of Self-Combustion if I remember rightly, but that seems to have been fixed. Think the 68s have had a decent introduction into service.

Loco-Hauled seems to be making a come back, very popular on the Chiltern and WAG, so I guess TPE are trying to tap into that, and I'm all for keeping 1st Class on trains. I don't want to be sat there being my normal commoner-self, and have some posh person sat next to me reading the Telegraph with his Elbows in my personal space, sticking his nose up at everyone!

EDIT: Having done a little research some 68s seem to have had the Self-Combustion issue too!

[Redirect Left]

EDIT: Having done a little research some 68s seem to have had the Self-Combustion issue too!

I don't think any of them have been major fires, still something that i hope has been ironed out

[NoMorePacers]

I'm just looking forward to the introduction of the Loco-Hauled Rakes, 5-Car sets with a Class 68 on the front, just hope the Mk5s are as good as the old Mk3s!

Yeah. I'm a little confused, I always thought in the modern era, we were trying to get away from loco hauled units, guess not.
Apparently those loco hauled ones will be on Transpennine North routes, so I might get to see some of them. I'm also hoping Transpennine Express will also not use some space on these new trains for First Class, it's 2016. We shouldn't seperate people by how rich they are on trains, especially when if you knocked that out you'd fit far more normal seats than you would 1st class seats*

Also the Class 68s, aren't they the ones that have a habit of self combustion? Hope they've ironed out that glitch by the time TPE get some!

*Before someone tries that, yes I have used first class. It certainly was not worth the price shift, only did it once!

Class 70s were the ones which had a habit of Self-Combustion if I remember rightly, but that seems to have been fixed. Think the 68s have had a decent introduction into service.

Loco-Hauled seems to be making a come back, very popular on the Chiltern and WAG, so I guess TPE are trying to tap into that, and I'm all for keeping 1st Class on trains. I don't want to be sat there being my normal commoner-self, and have some posh person sat next to me reading the Telegraph with his Elbows in my personal space, sticking his nose up at everyone!

EDIT: Having done a little research some 68s seem to have had the Self-Combustion issue too!

I wish Hull would get the 68-hauled trains, but seen as though it's the shortest distance (95 miles to Manchester, compared with 145 miles to Newcastle, for example) and the shortest service (only goes as far as Piccadilly, while the others go to the Airport or Liverpool Lime Street), for those reasons, we're keeping the 185s.

[Redirect Left]

I wish Hull would get the 68-hauled trains, but seen as though it's the shortest distance (95 miles to Manchester, compared with 145 miles to Newcastle, for example) and the shortest service (only goes as far as Piccadilly, while the others go to the Airport or Liverpool Lime Street), for those reasons, we're keeping the 185s.

I believe after the new fleet is delivered, TPE are keeping just short of 30 of the 185s. That's far too many for that one route, I wonder where the rest are going to be kept running?

Also, apparently 4 of the 185s are loaned to Northern on a daily basis, do they carry any Northern branding?

[Pilot]

I believe after the new fleet is delivered, TPE are keeping just short of 30 of the 185s. That's far too many for that one route, I wonder where the rest are going to be kept running?

Scarborough/Middlesbrough lines will still be diesel, and the 13 (that's how many there will be apparently) loco-hauled rakes will not be anywhere near enough, so the 185s will be able to provide services there too. The New Bi-Mode Electrics (Class 802s) will possibly be used on the Liverpool - Newcastle - Edinburgh Services and with the 350s (replaced by the Class 397s on Airport - Scotland trips), possibly migrating over to do the Airport - York/Newcastle's once the TP route is electrified, and providing they haven't been moved on.

Also, apparently 4 of the 185s are loaned to Northern on a daily basis, do they carry any Northern branding?

I've not seen any of those on hire to Northern, however, if it's anything like when TPE loaned the Class 156s, there will be a little paper banner in the Window with "Northern" written on it.