Flying Scotsman Diesel Pusher???

[Translink]

So I was enjoying watching a video of Scotty making her way across the forth bridge, but then I noticed some hideous diesel machine pushing her from the back! The question I want to ask NR is, What the devil is this rubbish??? Are you bad people trying to tell us that the machine who broke the bloody 100 mph barrier can't pull a rake of coaches on its own!!!??? Not only that but they postponed the excursion under the most ridiculous reason I have ever heard, not to mention that they had to hold her for 15 bloody minutes just because there was some photographers on the line? The heck is this Network Rail? Are these the steps to bringing back the Steam Ban or what???

[Dave]

To answer your question: this is a 21st century railway serving billions of passengers a year. Should the Flying Scotsman fail - as 80 year old steam engines are prone to do - the insurance on the back reduces the potential delay of a stopped excursion train on the mainline.

We've discussed the cancellation and then reinstatement of the tour elsewhere on the forum, I think.

And again - 21st century railway is not fit for steam vegetables to wander about on the track under the defence of "I brought my own hi-vis".

[Leanden]

As Dave says, you have to consider the age of the train. Bobby Morrow was the fastest sprinter in the world when he ran at the Olympics in 1956, but now at the age of 80 you have to expect that he probably won't be able to achieve that same feat.

[Pilot]

One other thing to take into account is that the Diesel was probably just ticking over, and not actually providing any power to the train.

Also, holding a train for 15 minutes to get people off the track is better than 10 dead people who don't get off the track in time. The Scotsman's run from London Kings Cross to York earlier in the year was delayed by even longer (nearly an hour) for the very same reason.

I doubt there is intention to bring back a Steam ban, however, the railways are very busy, and it is difficult to fit any extra trains in around the WTT traffic (especially during the day!), as I find out on a daily basis whilst doing my job. Also, it is a massive risk to take a potentially out of gauge train down a line, as it can wipe out platforms, bridges, people, etc. (I believe that was the reason it was originally cancelled)

[Redirect Left]

The same occurred to the Scarborough Flyer when it used to run. The engine that operated that, at least on all the journeys I saw, was The Dutchess of Sutherland, dating to the late 1930s I believe. Always had a diesel backup, however I saw it directly behind the steam loco, instead of the back. I posted pictures here of it a while ago.
Lovely pristine steam loco with a rather dirty diesel with a whopping great GB flag on it, cant remember the class of diesel unit though. Certainly looked out of place next to the steam loco.

No idea what happened to the Flyer, not seen it run for a few years now.

[SquireJames]

Lovely pristine steam loco with a rather dirty diesel with a whopping great GB flag on it, cant remember the class of diesel unit though.

Sounds like one of the specially painted Class 47s.

[Redirect Left]

Lovely pristine steam loco with a rather dirty diesel with a whopping great GB flag on it, cant remember the class of diesel unit though.

Sounds like one of the specially painted Class 47s.

Ah yes, one of those things. Not sure why they felt a whopper of a GB flag would look nice randomly flying down the railways behind Steam Locos.

[Translink]

So what it's over 80 years old? Most of its parts are brand new out of the workshop. She certainly is better built than that ugly pusher at the back.

[Geo Ghost]

The diesel loco is provided for a number of reasons. For example: To pull the service back out of terminus platforms at end of journeys; It can provide air/electricity for the train; but more importantly, the diesel loco is there to provide immediate assistance when the engine breaks down or is unable to continue forward. That is not an if, that is a when. Steam engines today are notoriously unreliable compared with your bog-standard mainline train.

To my knowledge, a steam engine and a diesel loco would not be working in sync with one another in regard to power and braking. Whether this is different depending on the engines, I'm not sure.
But if my assumption is correct there, it would be idling on the back. The diesel would certainly not be propelling the train during its run, unless there's some way of controlling it from the leading end of the entire train!

There's no plans to force a 'steam ban' without justification. However, should the ORR, Network Rail, and the RSSB/RAIB all deem that the operation of steam and heritage stock on the mainline is a risk to the safety of the railways, I will support it. Even if it is saddening. Safety ALWAYS comes first.

As for delays, excursions and tours are always bottom of the priority list. If other trains have to pass, they go first. Delays happen, and that can't be helped. It will always happen no matter how much changes. There will always be delays and problems that crop up. Trespassers especially is an incredibly dangerous thing, as the incident at St Neots proved on Scotsman's first ECML run. That could have ended in an absolute tragedy! If there's even a hint or report of a single trespasser... all stop. Nothing moves till it is known if someone is on the track or not.

[Redirect Left]

If there's even a hint or report of a single trespasser... all stop. Nothing moves till it is known if someone is on the track or not.

This happens quite frequently at Standedge Tunnels, between West Yorkshire (Marsden) & Manchester (Diggle/Greenfield). Youths play in the complex of tunnels, and they cannot run any trains until the police have searched all four of the tunnels and all of the little passages between them and made sure they've all disappeared. Highly annoying, but understandable. I'd rather hear on the tannoy that trains are delayed due to trespassers in the Standedge Tunnels, than delayed due to a fatality in the Standedge Tunnels.

I do feel sorry for the operators though, I hope incidents like this aren't taken into account when companies are fined for delayed or cancelled trains, as its completely out of their hands.

As for delays, excursions and tours are always bottom of the priority list.

I get the feeling this may be true for Passengers in general. I've been stopped a few times, mainly on HSTs on the WCML whilst a freight train moved around us, or that was exceptional circumstances.

[Geo Ghost]

I get the feeling this may be true for Passengers in general. I've been stopped a few times, mainly on HSTs on the WCML whilst a freight train moved around us, or that was exceptional circumstances.

Express and class 1 trains will priority over local and class 2 trains. Likewise, those 2's and locals will have priority over ECS class 3's, which will usually have priority over ECS Class 5's and freight.
I say usually. It's not set in stone and depends on circumstances and goings on
Even though excursions and specials run as Class 1's (or 1Z## to be precise), they still have to give way to all other passenger services, and quite rightly so when they aren't generating any revenue for the line! Don't want them holding up scheduled services

It is indeed unusual for a HST to be stopped for a freight movement. I imagine that must be, like you say, exceptional circumstances. Routing is given to passenger services first under normal conditions. But I'd imagine the location and movements are far greater factors to that

[Doorslammer]

So what it's over 80 years old? Most of its parts are brand new out of the workshop. She certainly is better built than that ugly pusher at the back.

Did we not say it wasn't pushing? Strike a light, how dare they have a failsafe for the inevitable...

[Geo Ghost]

Did we not say it wasn't pushing? Strike a light, how dare they have a failsafe for the inevitable...

I guess you could say Flying Scotsman hasn't got the best... track record?

.
..
... I'll just be going now.

In all seriousness though. There's been a great many times Scotty has failed in the past or had issues. In fact, another engine came to a stand on our line the other week as it simply couldn't build up enough steam.

[SquireJames]

Would it also be fair to say that, whilst not required in the current sunny weather, the attending Class 47 also provides ETH?

[Ameecher]

The 47 actually made the Scotsman look even better, probably added the weight of an extra 3 coaches, showing off the performance it was capable of!

[Translink]

How dare they have a failsafe for the inevitable...

Why then is there only 1 91 in the IC225 rake, not 2? Where's the failsafe for that loco?

[Pilot]

How dare they have a failsafe for the inevitable...

Why then is there only 1 91 in the IC225 rake, not 2? Where's the failsafe for that loco?

I'm not sure about now, but I'm pretty sure they're used to be 67s or other locomotives placed at strategic points along the East Coast Main line to rescue a failed train, but that could take several hours if a failure occurred.

[Geo Ghost]

How dare they have a failsafe for the inevitable...

Why then is there only 1 91 in the IC225 rake, not 2? Where's the failsafe for that loco?

There is a failsafe loco. Class 67 Thunderbird. However, it is very rare that 91s fail entirely and require an assisting train.
91s are maintained heavily and much more reliable, much like the majority of mainline stock. Steam is not reliable any more and has a different set of regulations upon them.

As said though, there's many other reasons you may have a 47 or other diesel engine on the back. Air supply, heating, electricity, allows the train to be driven 'back' if required to do a wrong-direction move (No loco on that back means you're pretty stuck till one can assist!), could even be used for banking on steep routes perhaps?
But primarily there would be a loco there to just drag the train out of a terminus (or into a terminus where the journey starts).
There wouldn't be any point having the diesel follow the train for the entire leg of the journey, just to couple up at the end to drag the train out. You may as well hook it up to the back and run with it attached.


What's the big deal anyway? It's a loco on the back of the consist.

I'm not sure about now, but I'm pretty sure they're used to be 67s or other locomotives placed at strategic points along the East Coast Main line to rescue a failed train, but that could take several hours if a failure occurred.

@Pilot - Usually major places and crew depots such as Kings Cross and Doncaster. Not sure about North of there.. being a southerner and all
The response time is surprisingly quick actually. Have seen a couple out before making rescues.

[Translink]

I'm not sure about now, but I'm pretty sure they're used to be 67s or other locomotives placed at strategic points along the East Coast Main line to rescue a failed train, but that could take several hours if a failure occurred.

Oh yes, the "Thunderbird" fleet.

[Translink]

As said though, there's many other reasons you may have a 47 or other diesel engine on the back. Air supply, heating, electricity etc... but primarily just to drag the train out of a terminus (or into a terminus where the journey starts).

Fair enough, it's just that I thought it was a pusher, which would be a massive insult from NR's side the the Scotsman.