Random Transport Chatter

Take a break from playing the game and chat here about real-world transportation issues!
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Geo Ghost
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost » 13 Nov 2018 21:19

Redirect Left wrote:The Nova 3s for Transpennine Express have been delayed by around 6-7 month. This is due to an issue with the brakes, at low speed the brakes cause the train to judder to a stop, instead of a nice slow to a halt.
The Nova 1 & 2s are unaffected by this fault, and still scheduled to arrived as prior.

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Bring back the good old Westcode Braking units! Can't go wrong with those :P
700s don't fair much better if the dynamics drop out!

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Ameecher » 13 Nov 2018 21:22

The irony here being that Loco-hauled stock was ordered as it could be delivered faster than multiple unit stock.

Awkward.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Redirect Left » 13 Nov 2018 21:45

Geo Ghost wrote: 700s don't fair much better if the dynamics drop out!
I was on a few 700s this weekend when i was visting my partner in Brighton. They seem to have varying software on the internal PIDs. The first one I was on was switching onto a view of how busy each carriage was, the second one didn't seem to have this, or it just wasn't turned on. They're also super trippy, being able to see down the entire train can be a bit "woah".
Next time I'm down, I might do the quick run from BTN to HOV, just to see how the oldest regular service EMUs on the network are. Got to say, that route seems very odd, barely worth it?

Didn't get a 700 back to London for the final journey though, as I learnt to my surprise that the super off peak return was valid for Gatwick Express services, so I did that back to Lahndan!
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Redirect Left » 20 Nov 2018 23:08

Siemens have won the contract to build a large amount of stock for the Underground in London. The initial deal was awarded in June, but challeneged by Bombardier & Hitachi. A high court eventually ruled that the deal could proceed.

The new units will replace the 70s built Piccadilly fleet, which TfL have said are becoming increasingly unreliable and expensive to keep running. The new fleet should be up and running by 2024, including the rather amazing feature of air conditioning which Londoners will be hugely pleased for.

The plan also requires the building of a new plant near Goole, which will build the new fleet.

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Live near Goole? There's around 700 jobs going to be created soon!
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Redirect Left » 11 Dec 2018 07:31

Probably to no ones surprise. The Elizabeth Line, also known as Crossrail, a new part of Londons underground network, will not meet its autumn launch next year, and has been granted a £1.4bn bailout.
This is the third bailout this year of the project.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46507417
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by YNM » 11 Dec 2018 13:14

Redirect Left wrote:... Crossrail ... will not meet its autumn launch next year ...
I wonder what's holding them back. Have they found out something bad in the tunnels ?
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost » 11 Dec 2018 20:25

YNM wrote:
Redirect Left wrote:... Crossrail ... will not meet its autumn launch next year ...
I wonder what's holding them back. Have they found out something bad in the tunnels ?
Did you not read the article? It says clear as day :P

Besides, we were told about this as far back as summer. What's funny is they left all the signage and massive posters up saying "CROSSRAIL... COMING DECEMBER 2018!" :lol:

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by YNM » 12 Dec 2018 01:03

Geo Ghost wrote:
YNM wrote:I wonder what's holding them back.
Did you not read the article? It says clear as day :P
Huh, I must be blind.

Though I see another article from months ago mentioning problems with electrical systems and signalling.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost » 12 Dec 2018 13:25

YNM wrote:
Geo Ghost wrote:
YNM wrote:I wonder what's holding them back.
Did you not read the article? It says clear as day :P
Huh, I must be blind.

Though I see another article from months ago mentioning problems with electrical systems and signalling.

"It was announced in August that the route was to open nine months after the original scheduled launch of December 2018 to allow more time for testing.
Crossrail said on Monday that the launch had once again been pushed back, and a new "robust and deliverable schedule" would be announced later."

:wink: :wink:

Usual stuff really. Not allowed enough time for testing. Same with our new trains always getting pushed back.. :P

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by YNM » 12 Dec 2018 17:27

Geo Ghost wrote:Usual stuff really. Not allowed enough time for testing. Same with our new trains always getting pushed back.. :P
Ah, I see. Looking which seams will fall off...
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Ameecher » 12 Dec 2018 17:32

Main problem is with the integration of the Crossrail Signalling system with ETCS/ATP/TPWS on the western route. iIt's never been done and they have to keep the railway operating safely while testing.

Not an easy job.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost » 12 Dec 2018 19:25

Ameecher wrote:Main problem is with the integration of the Crossrail Signalling system with ETCS/ATP/TPWS on the western route. iIt's never been done and they have to keep the railway operating safely while testing.

Not an easy job.
Closest I suppose is the TL core. And that's not yet been wholly successful :mrgreen:

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by YNM » 12 Dec 2018 23:29

Ameecher wrote:Main problem is with the integration of the Crossrail Signalling system with ETCS/ATP/TPWS on the western route. ...

Not an easy job.
But, does it mean trains have been tried to traverse the whole route ?

EDIT : Alright, upon further look around, it seems like that have happened as well.

But I spotted a TVM block marker.

So this is the equivalent of running Eurostar e300 trains out from the HS1 and onto Midland Main line... but I thought before HS1 existed Eurostar runs on the good old AWS ? Is it just the marker, but the system is entirely different ?
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost » 13 Dec 2018 12:12

YNM wrote:But I spotted a TVM block marker.

So this is the equivalent of running Eurostar e300 trains out from the HS1 and onto Midland Main line... but I thought before HS1 existed Eurostar runs on the good old AWS ? Is it just the marker, but the system is entirely different ?
I love 0:31 into that video on the DMI screen.
"ATP Down. ETCS Failure". Not the best things to have on a video advertising the testing of the route :lol:

Pre-HS1, the Eurostar fleet would have run on the traditional AWS/TPWS fitted lines town to the Channel Tunnel lines. I think from there it was then onto the TVM system. But don't quote me on that as it's outside my area of knowledge.

The markerboard you seen is a block marker for ERTMS/ETCS. Pretty much the same use as the TVM marker, but the ERTMS/ETCS system is the newer modern control system.
Switching from the old to the new is easy enough. The TL core is fitted with it and all that will happen (eventually) is the ETCS system on-board the class 700 trains will activate approaching the core and then the control screen will switch over from the old AWS/TPWS system to ETCS mode (and eventually along with ATO at the same time). The changeover, theoretically, happens in one go. No need to stop or anything, it just triggers and engages.
The TL core is interesting as it has both the ERTMS block markers and signals together. So both systems can be run on the same bit of track in a sense. Where as for the Crossrail line, it'll be going from one system onto another one, rather than running 'along side' the existing one.

To avoid confusion. ERTMS and ETCS relates to the same thing. In a nut shell... ERTMS is the 'signalling side' which controls the movements and where trains are going/what speed they need to do. ETCS is the system on-board the trains recieving and transmitting data to/from the ERTMS system and helping to control the train or relay that to the driver. it's a bit more complex, but that's a very basic way of putting it!
One is everything off the train, the other is everything on the train :D

Tricky to explain, easier to see :P
I imagine it is trickier for Crossrail as all systems need to function as planned, switch over when required, and not conflict with one another. ATP, TPWS, AWS, ETCS, and ATO. Lots of safety and control systems, but also a lot more to go wrong :P

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by YNM » 13 Dec 2018 12:49

Geo Ghost wrote:... The TL core is interesting as it has both the ERTMS block markers and signals together. So both systems can be run on the same bit of track in a sense. Where as for the Crossrail line, it'll be going from one system onto another one, rather than running 'along side' the existing one.

...

Tricky to explain, easier to see :P
I imagine it is trickier for Crossrail as all systems need to function as planned, switch over when required, and not conflict with one another. ATP, TPWS, AWS, ETCS, and ATO. Lots of safety and control systems, but also a lot more to go wrong :P
Yeah, I figure TL core has a visual signal fallback while Crossrail seems to only allow ETCS/ERTMS. So you reeeally want it all to work every single time.

I hope if they ever get around to Crossrail 2 they'll have sorted all of this out !
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Gwyd » 13 Dec 2018 16:31

Side note: a much easier example of TVM->AWS exists: the Southeastern Javelin services. Also, I believe the TVM markers are just standard for all in-cab signalling systems.

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Ameecher » 13 Dec 2018 22:38

Remember that Crossrail is using a different signalling system to ETCS. When it pops up in the West it will need to then integrate with ETCS, something that has never been done before anywhere. At the east end of integrates with conventional signalling. That bit is still about unknown but should be easier.

Whoever specced the tunnels to have a system that is incompatible with either end is a bit of a dumbass as by 2055, in theory, the whole national network will be ETCS fitted.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by YNM » 14 Dec 2018 06:12

Ameecher wrote:Whoever specced the tunnels to have a system that is incompatible with either end is a bit of a dumbass as by 2055, in theory, the whole national network will be ETCS fitted.
Someone said that to reach the same capabilities that CBTC offer (~50 s of gaps) they'd need ETCS L3.

But yeah, lessons learned I guess, as now they plan Crossrail 2 to only utilize ETCS.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost » 14 Dec 2018 11:10

Although I'd be interested in seeing how L3 ETCS works, I don't particularly want it as it is another step down the road towards full train automation which I do not support at all.
I think I'd find it weird having no defined stop point or signal too :P

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Ameecher » 14 Dec 2018 12:19

But Level 2 is effectively that if you put enough balises in, it just becomes too expensive to put in a balise every hundred metres, hence Level 3.

It's not like anyone vhas actually got L3 working yet though so you're fine for a bit ;)
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