Random Transport Chatter

[Ameecher]

Me thinks the person writing the article used Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway)

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I'm guessing individually they're fairly harmless. But if carefully taken apart, the explosives could be combined to make something a lot more powerful, similar to fireworks - which can and have been combined to create powerful bombs.

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A crash has occured in South Carolina, USA. A freight and a passenger train collided, it appears as though the Amtrak train was on the wrong tracks at the time of the accident.
There are currently reported to be 2 deaths and over 100 passengers taken to nearby hospitals, both of the deaths are crew members for Amtrak.
The passenger train, from New York to Miami collided causing the lead engine and several carriages to derail.

No doubt there will be some questions asked about how the two trains came to be on the same track in opposite directions of travel.

BBC News

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Virgin Trains East Coast has once again had its contract reduced. It was reduced already to 2020, however the situation has now been deemed 'much more urgent' that needed new arrangements in the very new future.

The Transport Secretary has come up with two potential plans of action,

One option was to allow Stagecoach to continue operating the franchise on a short-term and not-for-profit basis until a new contract is awarded in 2020.

Alternatively, East Coast Mainline could be brought back under government control and be run by the Department for Transport through an operator of last resort.

Mr Grayling said: "The problem is that Stagecoach got its numbers wrong. It overbid and is now paying a price."

Mr Grayling stated that Stagecoach were set to lose around £200M due to this.

However, it seems Virgin & Stagecoach are getting a bit of a pay off, and the West Coast franchise has been extended until 31st March, 2020. However Stagecoach have a minority share in that franchise, compared to the 90% on the East Coast, so Virgin will get off lightly financially, and Stagecoach will surely not.

BBC News.

Could the east coast end up back in public ownership again? Well, it is possible. In that case, it seems likely it'll bounce back to private leadership in 2020.

[Kevo00]

Strongest signal yet that the rail franchising as tax farming model doesn't work. There's always going to be a point on the escalator when it is unsustainable, and that assumes a solid state of stable customer demand.

[Geo Ghost]

What a shocking an unexpected turn of events for VTEC.
Never saw this coming, especially since no other operator on that line has gone bust- oh wait... hang on.

I've been hearing disaster stories for a good few years now on the inside. So this news doesn't come as much of a surprise.
I like to imagine the next bidding process as no one ends up wanting to take the risk with it.

Shame the government officials won't be held to account too, over this and a lot of other questionable activities, especially Grayling. My hatred for that man cannot be summed up in simple words.

[Gwyd]

I mean, I know the ECML doesn't exactly have the best track record for operators, but I thought VTEC (stagecoach) would do a good job. And maybe they would have, if the upgrades associated with the 802s had come sooner. Having said that, the new timetable for that was coming in 2019.

[Griff]

The bit I don't understand...and maybe someone can clarify is that it is oft said that *company* overbid for the franchise. I'm sure I heard this with VTEC and NatEx.

Surely as part of the tendering processes, it would be up to the government to ensure that the bidders are financially sound enough to operate the route and not just awarding it to whoever have the biggest number.

[Gwyd]

Ah yes. But the government is poor. That's why they nearly awarded the WCML to first group a while back, but Virgin challenged this.

[Ameecher]

A crash has occured in South Carolina, USA. A freight and a passenger train collided, it appears as though the Amtrak train was on the wrong tracks at the time of the accident.
There are currently reported to be 2 deaths and over 100 passengers taken to nearby hospitals, both of the deaths are crew members for Amtrak.
The passenger train, from New York to Miami collided causing the lead engine and several carriages to derail.

No doubt there will be some questions asked about how the two trains came to be on the same track in opposite directions of travel.

BBC News

Seems to be yet another case of a non existent safety culture where the reliance on a person doing the right thing and no monitoring (the points are hand operated with no detection so if they are set wrong it's not possible to tell until the train travels over it). Appalling state of affairs that means that although Amtrak run hardly any trains, a hell of a lot of them crash.

[Geo Ghost]

(the points are hand operated with no detection

User worked points without detection... with passenger services..? Are you serious?
I knew the US has a very poor safety culture with railways. Lack of nation-wide train stop systems by requirement being one. But points like that is terrifying. We're limited to about 5-15mph over ones like that here and passengers on board is a definite no-no.

[Ameecher]

(the points are hand operated with no detection

User worked points without detection... with passenger services..? Are you serious?
I knew the US has a very poor safety culture with railways. Lack of nation-wide train stop systems by requirement being one. But points like that is terrifying. We're limited to about 5-15mph over ones like that here and passengers on board is a definite no-no.

I am serious. This was in a centralised control area too but it all relies on open channel radio communication and that is of a poor standard. E.g. the shunter/engineer only has to confirm the points are set. Not which why they are set! Bear in mind that this set up was under degraded working where it seems that what signalling was in the area was switched off to enable upgrade works. Your obviously aware of the UK degraded working policy which (I think) is to drive so that you can stop within your field of vision. Here it was 59mph...


One of the busiest bits of passenger railway in the US is the Long Island Rail Road. Doesn't this paragraph in the Wikipedia article on the LIRR just fill you with dread?
"Some portions of the railway lack automatic signals and cab signals completely, instead train and track car movements are governed only by timetable and verbal/written train orders."

**Shudder**

They are actually using methods of operation that the UK outlawed in 1899!

[supermop]

(the points are hand operated with no detection

User worked points without detection... with passenger services..? Are you serious?
I knew the US has a very poor safety culture with railways. Lack of nation-wide train stop systems by requirement being one. But points like that is terrifying. We're limited to about 5-15mph over ones like that here and passengers on board is a definite no-no.

I am serious. This was in a centralised control area too but it all relies on open channel radio communication and that is of a poor standard. E.g. the shunter/engineer only has to confirm the points are set. Not which why they are set! Bear in mind that this set up was under degraded working where it seems that what signalling was in the area was switched off to enable upgrade works. Your obviously aware of the UK degraded working policy which (I think) is to drive so that you can stop within your field of vision. Here it was 59mph...


One of the busiest bits of passenger railway in the US is the Long Island Rail Road. Doesn't this paragraph in the Wikipedia article on the LIRR just fill you with dread?
"Some portions of the railway lack automatic signals and cab signals completely, instead train and track car movements are governed only by timetable and verbal/written train orders."

**Shudder**

They are actually using methods of operation that the UK outlawed in 1899!

To be fair,

This stretch of track is owned and operated by CSX, which has about the worst safety record of all the major US railroads. Generally the problem with putting Amtrak through the wringer in cases like these is that it's a perfect example of 'privatize the profits, socialize the losses' mentality. While the Federal government mandated that all such line would be under 'Positive Train Control', the major freight railroads have been able to repeatedly lobby to delay the implementation

This article in the Atlantic yesterday is pretty a good take on Amtrak's recent safety challenges:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ck/552317/

[Geo Ghost]

After only a very brief google on Positive Train Control, it does seem quite similar in some ways to our Level 1 ETCS. All be it a bit... weirdified.
Surprised by the rather tremendous cost though for something that seems so lacking in technology and potential. Would have thought the US network could have found it far cheaper and easier to implement a TPWS style system as standard.

Hell, we still use the old Trip-Cock system in some places which is as basic as you can get for train protection.
Red signal, pneumatic arm raises by the side of the track, strikes a lever on the underside of the train if it passes said signal or approaches too quickly and engages the brakes. Very simple, very effective, but also very annoying when a bit of ballast hits the one at the rear and you grind to a halt in the middle of nowhere

[YNM]

(the points are hand operated with no detection so if they are set wrong it's not possible to tell until the train travels over it)

Whaaaaaat ????!?

I thought "huh, has the interlocking failed ?", but then I try to see the direction of the freight loco, which seems to be in the same direction of the passenger train - so it's not a passing loop. Sidings are probably useable for shunting and that means this could be just a mistake off the signal box. But...

Seriously. How can a mainline connection be ground-operated without interlocking ? (I'm well-aware of some that is ground operated to mainline, ie. this, but I'm sure they have interlocking. That' aross the pond though.)

[supermop]

After only a very brief google on Positive Train Control, it does seem quite similar in some ways to our Level 1 ETCS. All be it a bit... weirdified.
Surprised by the rather tremendous cost though for something that seems so lacking in technology and potential. Would have thought the US network could have found it far cheaper and easier to implement a TPWS style system as standard.

Hell, we still use the old Trip-Cock system in some places which is as basic as you can get for train protection.
Red signal, pneumatic arm raises by the side of the track, strikes a lever on the underside of the train if it passes said signal or approaches too quickly and engages the brakes. Very simple, very effective, but also very annoying when a bit of ballast hits the one at the rear and you grind to a halt in the middle of nowhere

All of the NYC Subway is trip-cock operated, and has been essentially since it was built. It's also pretty well fail safe despite its age, so we get a fair number of rush hour trains stuck waiting at a nearly hundred year old signal.

The vast majority of rail miles int the US are privately owned by the major freight railroads, and for the past 80 or so years they've really been pushing for a pretty much lassiez faire approach to regulation. As fewer people came to depend on rail for long-haul travel it seems to have become easier for them to lobby in the interest of their bottom line. As passenger rail miles start to increase again recently, I am sure we will see more public demand to modernize the system.

[Thorg]

One of the busiest bits of passenger railway in the US is the Long Island Rail Road. Doesn't this paragraph in the Wikipedia article on the LIRR just fill you with dread?
"Some portions of the railway lack automatic signals and cab signals completely, instead train and track car movements are governed only by timetable and verbal/written train orders."

Typical arrogant Brit with incomplete information jumping to conclusions. The areas mentioned see a grand total of a dozen and a half trains a day. These are near empty infrequent trains that run in areas where it's very common for road traffic to be held up by farm tractors.

They are an inconsequential fraction of hundreds of daily trains.

[Ameecher]

18 trains a day? We have lots of lines here with much less than that with some very strong safety features. I don't call that arrogance, I call it sensible.
You can't run a passenger carrying train in the UK without them and frankly I'm amazed that you actively defend it.
If that's arrogant then whatever.

[Geo Ghost]

Typical arrogant Brit with incomplete information jumping to conclusions.

Hey, none of that please.
Totally unnecessary

[Ameecher]

Typical arrogant Brit with incomplete information jumping to conclusions.

Hey, none of that please.
Totally unnecessary

It's fine. I like to be arrogant about not dying.