Random Transport Chatter

Take a break from playing the game and chat here about real-world transportation issues!

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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Redirect Left »

Would be interesting to find pictures for each part of the route to see how far each unit got. However, most people are not that interested so probably didn't picture it on the journey.

Assuming they had the money to follow a freight train around Europe anyway.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Dave »

If you can identify the train reporting number in each place you'll probably come across pics of it, although you'll likely need to do a bit of jumping between sites because, as you say, no one is likely to have chased it across Europe.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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So, I've been thinking (Dangerous for me, I know!) about the Class 707s (for our none-British friends, clicky here), and the fact that they are going to be replaced almost immediately by the new First SWT, and the fact they've not got a new home (as far as I've heard). So, I was wondering, would Southern be in a position to take them on? They would be the perfect replacement to the Class 455s (I think Southern have a few more 455s than there is 707s however), and with them being part of GTR, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get the drivers trained on them, as they're probably the same layout as the 700s cab-wise. A lick of paint and a change of the seat covers would do the trick from a Passenger perspective!

Also, lots of Brackets, I know, I'm sorry (not sorry!)
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost »

There have been rumours going around of 707s heading up North perhaps.
Only draw back of course is that they would need AC systems fitted before the move. But not impossible if a company wants to take up that job :P

Southern of SouthEastern would be a good shout though. Bit of a shame they won't keep them on the South West for some routes elsewhere. But there's bound to be a good reason for it.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Geo Ghost wrote:Only draw back of course is that they would need AC systems fitted before the move. But not impossible if a company wants to take up that job :P
Potentially London Midland for the City services, replacing the 323s. They're probably similar to the 350s technically and mechanically (after all, these are simply Desiro City's), so if the conversion to 25kV is a simple job of throwing a pantograph on them, which I believe is the idea with most new DC stock, then LM would be a sensible home for them.
Geo Ghost wrote:But there's bound to be a good reason for it.
From what I was reading in one of the Railway Magazine's (though half of it is generally hot air), the 707s are rather expensive to operate, I'm not sure why that might be.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Dave »

700s one of the worst performing trains on the network - only achieving 4000km per casualty.

Maybe MTR saw that and thought "NOPE"
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Geo Ghost wrote:There have been rumours going around of 707s heading up North perhaps.
You live quite far south, so how 'north' is 'north' to you? I can't think of anything due to be replaced or unncessarily poo even for the North around my 'north' area that hasn't already got a confirmed order for replacement EMU/DMUs.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Pilot wrote:So, I've been thinking (Dangerous for me, I know!) about the Class 707s (for our none-British friends, clicky here), and the fact that they are going to be replaced almost immediately by the new First SWT, and the fact they've not got a new home (as far as I've heard). So, I was wondering, would Southern be in a position to take them on? They would be the perfect replacement to the Class 455s (I think Southern have a few more 455s than there is 707s however), and with them being part of GTR, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get the drivers trained on them, as they're probably the same layout as the 700s cab-wise. A lick of paint and a change of the seat covers would do the trick from a Passenger perspective!

Also, lots of Brackets, I know, I'm sorry (not sorry!)
If you replace 455s on Southern you either need to extend platforms or reduce capacity as I'm sure some stuff like the Epsom Down line can only take 8 cars.

Conversion to AC will be a quick job, they're essentially 5 car 700s afterall.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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I'm not so sure whether things really ends up working better that way, but why most (if not all) UK EMUs for commuter route have 2+2 or 2+1 seat instead of the long-bench-thing ? Is it because otherwise some journeys will end up in more complaints or what ?
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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YNM wrote:I'm not so sure whether things really ends up working better that way, but why most (if not all) UK EMUs for commuter route have 2+2 or 2+1 seat instead of the long-bench-thing ? Is it because otherwise some journeys will end up in more complaints or what ?
Because if for the price the British pay for trains only got us a long bench. There would be actual murders over it.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Geo Ghost »

Dave wrote:700s one of the worst performing trains on the network - only achieving 4000km per casualty.
And yet, I still cannot wait to get driving and breaking them!
To be fair, I think a lot of people expected them to be problematic to start with. New tech on the block, being put through its paces all the time. Bound to have issues. Though not sure if they expected them to have quite so many problems!
Though to be fair, the 365s when they first came out were troublesome. More recently, 387s running on the ECML were failing left right and centre on a hourly basis! Luckily most of the problems have been sorted, and the trains have finally stopped announcing "Coaches East Coast to Cross Country, will continue to Cambridge. This is the Brake Controller is in an Emergency Position Service"

Redirect Left wrote:
Geo Ghost wrote:There have been rumours going around of 707s heading up North perhaps.
You live quite far south, so how 'north' is 'north' to you? I can't think of anything due to be replaced or unncessarily poo even for the North around my 'north' area that hasn't already got a confirmed order for replacement EMU/DMUs.
To be honest, 'The North' for me is anywhere past Peterborough! :P
But in this case, I did mean the literally North. Northern Rail I think or something.. not sure where I heard it now. May have just been hear-say.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Geo Ghost wrote:
Redirect Left wrote:
Geo Ghost wrote:There have been rumours going around of 707s heading up North perhaps.
You live quite far south, so how 'north' is 'north' to you? I can't think of anything due to be replaced or unncessarily poo even for the North around my 'north' area that hasn't already got a confirmed order for replacement EMU/DMUs.
To be honest, 'The North' for me is anywhere past Peterborough! :P
But in this case, I did mean the literally North. Northern Rail I think or something.. not sure where I heard it now. May have just been hear-say.
Northern "could" take them on for the North West Electric services, all stations on Chat Moss can cope with 5 carriages, and I'm sure the passenger demand would probably warrant 5-carriages. Wigan - Liverpool is a different story, I believe the stations are only 4-cars long, but I don't imagine these trains are the busiest anyway (until they get to Huyton). Another line they could be useful on is Manchester - Blackpool trains via Bolton when that is all wired. Again, all platforms can take at least 5-cars (except for Moses Gate according to the Quails), so it's another possible route for them.
YNM wrote:I'm not so sure whether things really ends up working better that way, but why most (if not all) UK EMUs for commuter route have 2+2 or 2+1 seat instead of the long-bench-thing ? Is it because otherwise some journeys will end up in more complaints or what ?
Commuter routes generally used to have a 2+3 seating layout, however, we are reducing the number of seats (to 2+2 or 2+1) in newer "high density" trains, to provide far more standing room on the trains, to allow more passengers on board (it is also believed that the fact PAX are already standing reduces dwell times at stations).
Ameecher wrote:If you replace 455s on Southern you either need to extend platforms or reduce capacity as I'm sure some stuff like the Epsom Down line can only take 8 cars.

Conversion to AC will be a quick job, they're essentially 5 car 700s afterall.
I completely forgot about lines to places such as Epsom Downs, Caterham, etc. I thought that Southern's 455s were mostly doing Victoria-Bridge services. That idea isn't as good as I thought it was then.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Redirect Left wrote:
YNM wrote:I'm not so sure whether things really ends up working better that way, but why most (if not all) UK EMUs for commuter route have 2+2 or 2+1 seat instead of the long-bench-thing ? Is it because otherwise some journeys will end up in more complaints or what ?
Because if for the price the British pay for trains only got us a long bench. There would be actual murders over it.
Well yeah your tickets sounds really really expensive ! I mean, even the farthest commuter train (1.5 hour journey) costs less than one pound here...

Pilot wrote:Commuter routes generally used to have a 2+3 seating layout, however, we are reducing the number of seats (to 2+2 or 2+1) in newer "high density" trains, to provide far more standing room on the trains, to allow more passengers on board (it is also believed that the fact PAX are already standing reduces dwell times at stations).
I was talking about those long side benches like the ones in Tube or in the japanese commuter trains... I mean, wouldn't it be that if you can cram more passengers in you should be able to sell cheaper fares or something ? I do see commuter trains in UK somewhat competes with busses, which doesn't really happen here (the roads are so congested may as well you cram yourself on a train instead ! Wouldn't that be more true of all major english conurbation then...)
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

Post by Pilot »

YNM wrote:
Redirect Left wrote:
YNM wrote:I'm not so sure whether things really ends up working better that way, but why most (if not all) UK EMUs for commuter route have 2+2 or 2+1 seat instead of the long-bench-thing ? Is it because otherwise some journeys will end up in more complaints or what ?
Because if for the price the British pay for trains only got us a long bench. There would be actual murders over it.
Well yeah your tickets sounds really really expensive ! I mean, even the farthest commuter train (1.5 hour journey) costs less than one pound here
Staff and Maintenance are cheaper over there however, which means ticket prices can be far cheaper. Do people still sit on the roofs and the front of the train out there as well?
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Pilot wrote:Commuter routes generally used to have a 2+3 seating layout, however, we are reducing the number of seats (to 2+2 or 2+1) in newer "high density" trains, to provide far more standing room on the trains, to allow more passengers on board (it is also believed that the fact PAX are already standing reduces dwell times at stations).
I was talking about those long side benches like the ones in Tube or in the japanese commuter trains... I mean, wouldn't it be that if you can cram more passengers in you should be able to sell cheaper fares or something ? I do see commuter trains in UK somewhat competes with busses, which doesn't really happen here (the roads are so congested may as well you cram yourself on a train instead ! Wouldn't that be more true of all major english conurbation then...)
No sensible person in the UK, if they have the choice between Train and Bus, would get the Bus. Also, some of these "commuter trains" you might be on for an hour, if not more, therefore, those silly bench seats are far from comfortable. If you get a Brighton to London train, which takes about an hour, you would likely not want to sit on one of the tube style seats. Also, this breaks down the current fares on British railways. As you can see, only 3p per pound of the ticket price is actual profit, so there isn't actually that much to reduce!
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Pilot wrote:No sensible person in the UK, if they have the choice between Train and Bus, would get the Bus.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.

In London there's a fair choice between bus and train:

Harringay (Z3)-Moorgate (Z1)
£3.90 18 minutes

Mattison Road (nearest bus stop)-Moorgate Station
£1.50 38 minutes

These are comparable for the time/cost difference and, admittedly only in this case, the flexibility of being above ground.


There's also companies like The King's Ferry which have thriving medium distance commuter routes from the Medway Towns into the city, providing a competitive (and cheaper) alternative than stopping services into Cannon Street and Charing Cross.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Dave wrote:
Pilot wrote:No sensible person in the UK, if they have the choice between Train and Bus, would get the Bus.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with that
Thinking about it myself, I'm not sure whether I agree with it.

For example, there has to be a reason people get the 192 between Manchester and Stockport, instead of the train. After all, the 192 is the busiest bus route in the UK! Also, your King's Ferry example also got me thinking about the Coach between Manchester and Leeds, the coach takes 10/15 minutes longer than the train, and is about half the price, so is in fact very competitive there as well.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Pilot wrote:Staff and Maintenance are cheaper over there however, which means ticket prices can be far cheaper. Do people still sit on the roofs and the front of the train out there as well ?
No, we just cram ourselves into the train - I bet one carriage can ends up carrying around few hundred people or so in maximum compression (pun intended !), and considering most train consists now are 10 to 12 cars in length (thanks to agressive platform extensions) each trains carries well in few thousand people between stations ! And it might be true that the wages are somewhat lower here and maintenance are slightly cheaper (being cape gauge and slower speed and all), but it doesn't mean we don't have that ! In fact we end up paying more people I suppose (train guards in the women-only carriages and platform guards, also there're almost always two drivers). If there's anything completely different, our local trains are still subsidized by the government.
Pilot wrote:Also, some of these "commuter trains" you might be on for an hour, if not more, therefore, those silly bench seats are far from comfortable. If you get a Brighton to London train, which takes about an hour, you would likely not want to sit on one of the tube style seats. Also, this breaks down the current fares on British railways. As you can see, only 3p per pound of the ticket price is actual profit, so there isn't actually that much to reduce!
Well all the lines that we have (except one to Tangerang and another short shuttle) have full route duration of around an hour... if you end up standing anyway, who'd care about the seats ? The seats that we use comes with foam (I suppose many of the seats now installed in british EMUs are plastic or something ?).

I was thinking something on the line of "what if each carriage can carry twice that it carries now" so that you end up selling twice more tickets, so everyone can have less fare...
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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YNM wrote: Well all the lines that we have (except one to Tangerang and another short shuttle) have full route duration of around an hour... if you end up standing anyway, who'd care about the seats?
The longest single route in the UK is Aberdeen (Scotland) to Penzance (The far south west coast of England), it takes around 13 hours and £233 for a walk up on the day ticket, which translates to around 4018870 Rupiah in Indonesia.
Seats in the UK generally resemble this - except on the Tube where they're lengthways foam seats.
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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Redirect Left wrote:The longest single route in the UK is Aberdeen (Scotland) to Penzance (The far south west coast of England), it takes around 13 hours and £233 for a walk up on the day ticket, which translates to around 4018870 Rupiah in Indonesia.
Seats in the UK generally resemble this - except on the Tube where they're lengthways foam seats.
Well a 13-hour journey on average of 120 km/h (I know it maxes out at 160 but you can't really run that all the way right ? Or is that route done with an HST ?) would justify the cost and the seats... I was talking about things that is well-limited to around one and a half hour, like future Crossrail or Brighton to London (at least on Train Sim it takes an hour ideally), those things need capacity badly (I presume !) and I think people won't really mind standing the length over time. Just that if you don't say to people "we DO expect you to stand in peak times" I suppose temper would start to break down.

That sort of journey time here (13 hours) would easily sums up as long distance and you'd get to be assigned to seats.

Which brings another question : do local trains there carry long-distance passengers as well ?
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Re: Random Transport Chatter

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YNM wrote:Well a 13-hour journey on average of 120 km/h (I know it maxes out at 160 but you can't really run that all the way right ? Or is that route done with an HST ?)
The 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance is normally operated by a Class 220/221 Voyager, capable of 125mph (200km/h). I believe a HST would be wasted on such a route to be honest! And to call this train '1 train' is a bit wrong I feel, as it is effectively about 5 services rolled into one. After all, if you really needed to go from Aberdeen to Penzance, it's both quicker, and cheaper to fly from Aberdeen to Newquay (1610 departure, arriving Newquay 1805, price £28.28) then getting the train from Newquay to Penzance (2045 Newquay to Par, then the 2138 Par to Penzance, arriving Penzance 2244), price £10.20. (A return doing it this way would be £83).
YNM wrote:I was talking about things that is well-limited to around one and a half hour, like future Crossrail or Brighton to London (at least on Train Sim it takes an hour ideally), those things need capacity badly (I presume !) and I think people won't really mind standing the length over time.
Depends, would you want to stand for 60-90 minutes if you, for example, had a disability, or were travelling as a family with a small child, or were trying to get some work done on the way in (as many people in the UK do)?
YNM wrote:That sort of journey time here (13 hours) would easily sums up as long distance and you'd get to be assigned to seats.
Whilst you CAN reserve a seat on a Long-distance train, it is not mandatory, and the unreserved seats are on a 'first come - first served' basis. For example, the 11 car Virgin trains from Manchester to London have 2 unreserved carriages (F and U), however, you can occasionally find an unreserved seat in the other 5 standard carriages.
YNM wrote:Which brings another question : do local trains there carry long-distance passengers as well ?
Certainly so, London Midland are a prime example of this. They use 110mph capable electric trains, designed for "commuter" use, that operate between Birmingham and London. As it is generally cheaper to get one of these services (despite the extra time taken) it can save you money by travelling with them (provided you get the correct ticket).
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