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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:52 pm 
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Illegal_Alien wrote:
Our Prime Minister has order to have all flags to be on half Stok on all goverment buildings. (Noun?)


EN: half mast. I don't know if stok is Dutch for mast?

And let's simmer down. It's all speculation at the minute until it's confirmed.

Wiki will be being updated in much "realer" time than we are so it's probably accurate.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:56 pm 
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Dave wrote:
EN: half mast. I don't know if stok is Dutch for mast?

And let's simmer down. It's all speculation at the minute until it's confirmed.

Wiki will be being updated in much "realer" time than we are so it's probably accurate.

Yes, half-stok is literally 'half-mast' in EN. My rather limited dutch tells me.
Also, Wikipedia was reporting the same as the interviewee at Schiphol Airport, so was accurate at the time I posted.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:57 pm 
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Stok = Stick, but also used for Mast.

But we dutch are strong, i do hope that we will still act rational. There are a lot of pissed off people now. But we cant stand and keep watching.


Also the number of casualties are confirmed by the NOS (Dutch national television.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:59 pm 
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Because it requires sources (and current event articles are severely restricted), wiki tends to be an excellent aggregator for current events.

One of their admins will be dealing with edits. There's probably one edit per second on that article.

Very sad day, especially for the Netherlands, a nation which I have grown to love for many reasons.

Not much more to say really.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:27 pm 
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Ameecher wrote:
bjgttd wrote:
You need to be really smart to fly over a well known war zone.

At 30,000 ft though is a fairly reasonable assumption that you're out of the range of most rebel weapons as is being used in that war zone.

Pretty much anything USSR had could be used in that war zone at some point, and people using it (on both sides) might know how to do it properly or not. Definitely an area to stay far away from.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:36 am 
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When I saw the title of this thread, I actually thought it was some kind of sick joke :| . Really, I never thought someone would shoot down a neutral passenger commercial airline down at this modern age. I thought the days of downing Iran Air and Korean Air have passed us.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:38 am 
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Sad coincidence that today is also the 18th anniversary of the TWA Flight 800 explosion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:33 am 
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Illegal_Alien wrote:
But we dutch are strong, i do hope that we will still act rational. There are a lot of pissed off people now. But we cant stand and keep watching.


There's little we can do until it's clear who fired that missile. (assuming the plane was actually shot down, which sounds likely, but not confirmed yet AFAIK). With all involved parties pointing fingers to each other, it could take a while to be sure who actually did it.

With so many casualties, there's a pretty big chance someone I know has just lost a relative. No news of that yet, but I do fear the news reaching me soon...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:37 am 
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Just watching the new conference from Kuala Lumpur. It angers me that the journalists are trying to place a proportion of blame on Malaysian Airlines and some are at times coming close to accusing Malaysian Airlines of negligence and deliberately endangering people's lives.

This is a well used flight route, operated by plenty of airlines on a daily basis. At the time the aircraft were downed, there were other international carriers in the region. To say that flights are using this route because it is cheaper or faster is ludicrous. These are internationally recognized and approved flight routes. If there were any concerns over the safety of passenger airliners then this airspace would have been closed. Any 'recommendations' to go around are irrelevant.

Malaysian Airlines are not responsible, at all, for this disaster.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:40 am 
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Just confirmed (dutch media);

173 Dutch casualties a.t.m.

Also confirmed; one of our top Scientists/Researchers againt Aids/HIV where on that plane.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... c6dcd79a73

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Just in;

189 Dutch casualties, still 4 are unidentified...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:18 pm 
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The tragicness of this incident seems to have no bounds, up to 108 of the passengers may have been AIDS/HIV researchers on their way to Melbourne for a summit on AIDS, a tragic loss to science added to the incident.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:27 pm 
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Our Prime Minister looks rather pissed off but keeps calm...

But he states he will not rest until we have all facts, and then act.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:32 pm 
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Illegal_Alien wrote:
Our Prime Minister looks rather pissed off but keeps calm...

But he states he will not rest until we have all facts, and then act.

Whereas Americas Senator McCain just bluntly came out with "there's going to be hell to pay".
I think the best thing for everyone to do, is just take it all in, work out what the actual facts are, and then go from there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:22 pm 
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In one of the pressconferences, our Prime Minister was asked if we would call upon "Article 5" He said NO.

Quote:
Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:49 pm 
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Griff wrote:
Just watching the new conference from Kuala Lumpur. It angers me that the journalists are trying to place a proportion of blame on Malaysian Airlines and some are at times coming close to accusing Malaysian Airlines of negligence and deliberately endangering people's lives.

This is a well used flight route, operated by plenty of airlines on a daily basis. At the time the aircraft were downed, there were other international carriers in the region. To say that flights are using this route because it is cheaper or faster is ludicrous. These are internationally recognized and approved flight routes. If there were any concerns over the safety of passenger airliners then this airspace would have been closed. Any 'recommendations' to go around are irrelevant.

Malaysian Airlines are not responsible, at all, for this disaster.


Here here.

Like I said before, poor Malaysia. We really don't deserve this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:53 pm 
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While there may have been something that could have possibly been done in the first one, at the very least this one seems to not only be out of their hands, but a complete accident.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:53 pm 
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There're speculations (or truth ?) that peoples in Ukraine thought the plane is a Russian presidential plane... the striping is similar from what I know - thin bule and red.

Yeah, stupid accident.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:08 am 
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Yeah, I've seen the conspiracy theories that the Israeli government provided the Ukrainians with information on tracking President Putin's plane. And also that it was a mis-fire by the Russians on a Ukrainian plane. And that it was a complete accident by Russian-backed rebels who have accepted full responsibility for the accident.

I don't really have it in me to go follow the news right now.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:28 am 
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Seems to me that this is the consequence of the west turning its back on what has been happening in Ukraine recently. This strikes me as very close to home; AIDS scientists and football fans going about their normal work and leisure pursuits do not deserve to be blown up as a consequence of what appears to be state sponsored terror. The various conflicts now going on in Ukraine, the Middle East and Africa seem to be conducted in a 'post-modern' fashion, without regard to any sort of international legal framework, and the danger here is that a precedent is set that civilian aircraft are 'fair game'.

I have to fly to China for work in a few weeks and this incident particularly worries me. It also worries me as an academic, often going to international conferences, and as a football fan. My position is simple. If it was an accident, then the perpetrators should apologise profusely, and realise that the stupidity in the Ukraine has got to stop. Otherwise, this is an act of aggression and should be treated as such. Better a confrontation with Putin now than in three years time.

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