High Speed 2?

[m3henry]

"Stevenson! What are you mucking about with railways for?! Everyone uses horses and canals! Trains aren't a proven technology! They'll never catch on!"

actuallly by then it was a proven technology, you should think about Trevithic and high pressure steam

[Ameecher]

Why would you have a tram system between Midland and Victoria? They are right next to each other although a shopping centre has been built on the site of Victoria so that is a bit of non-starter anyway.

[Parkey]

Why would you have a tram system between Midland and Victoria? They are right next to each other although a shopping centre has been built on the site of Victoria so that is a bit of non-starter anyway.

KNOCK IT DOWN!

Have you seen that shopping centre?! It's absolutely horrible! The very finest 1970s architecture in plastic and asbestos. Besides, Nottingham's other shopping centre, the Broadmarsh is getting a huge expansion and upgrade soon, so it's not like anybody will miss the Victoria centre. Not like anybody would miss it now.

Victoria is a 10-15 minute walk from Midland and much more central, so Trams would be the best way to transfer between the two.

[orudge]

In the long term, the UK Ultraspeed proposal of a line from London that "twists" around the country and takes in Glasgow and Edinburgh would seem to be a good one, even if it's only done with conventional (high-speed) rail. The fact it seems to take so long for anything to get built in this country, particularly south of the border, doesn't seem to help though. But we can always hope.

Also, I'm not particularly familiar with the ECML, but I gather it's relatively straight and flat. Would it be hypothetically possible to upgrade that for high-speed running, and perhaps have branches or loops off it to take in centres of population that may otherwise be "missed" (Manchester, Birmingham, etc)? I haven't really looked at a map to see if that would be feasible, it just seems like a vaguely plausible idea in my head.

[Parkey]

In the long term, the UK Ultraspeed proposal of a line from London that "twists" around the country and takes in Glasgow and Edinburgh would seem to be a good one, even if it's only done with conventional (high-speed) rail. The fact it seems to take so long for anything to get built in this country, particularly south of the border, doesn't seem to help though. But we can always hope.

The reason that the suggest maglev route "twists" and conventional high speed rail concepts don't is, I believe, because maglevs are much better at tackling the steep gradients involved with such a route.

We'll have to see what the government sets out in its plans for the railways, which will be announced sometime over the next month. I won't expect anything spectacular, but I wouldn't be surprised if a "feasibility study" into a high speed rail is in there.

Also, I'm not particularly familiar with the ECML, but I gather it's relatively straight and flat. Would it be hypothetically possible to upgrade that for high-speed running, and perhaps have branches or loops off it to take in centres of population that may otherwise be "missed" (Manchester, Birmingham, etc)? I haven't really looked at a map to see if that would be feasible, it just seems like a vaguely plausible idea in my head.

I think this idea was investigated by the Virgin rail group a few years back. They wanted to upgrade some of the ECML to TGV speeds and build additional lines to bypass congested and winding bits. It was turned down by the government of course, but I think that was because it was just after Hatfield.

[Kevo00]

Its not as straight and flat throughout as people think - its actually quite undulating and curvy in the part north of Peterborough, Co. Durham and the Scottish Borders.

However, to augment the proposal above: North of York it would be possible to build a fast line next to the line through North Yorkshire - its pretty empty. Then to avoid the curvy part through Durham the old leamside line could be upgraded for 200mph running before rejoining the main route through Newcastle and then 200mph lines could again be built parallel to the main in Northmberland. This could be done in East Lothian too, but the hills in the borders might pose a challenge.

Can't see any solution but a new build for going all the way to Glasgow though from Edin.

[Parkey]

Here's the old BBC article about the Virgin bid.

Here's a map showing the route it would have taken (from wikipedia). Sections of new track are in red.



As the WCML upgrade has shown though, building new lines is a much cheaper option than trying to work on and upgrade a busy existing route.

[Parkey]

Something interesting in the news this morning. Much as I hate quoting the Daily Mail....

[Ameecher]

Just had a quick skim-read of it, but following the WCML doesn't seem like the best idea to me, maybe as far as Birmingham but well...

Then there's the fact it's the Daily Fail, let's hope there's some truth behind it.

[Dave]

London-Manchester as per WCML, then head onto the East Coast to avoid the hilly nature that comes with traversing Lancashire.

Bear in mind that north of London on the East Coast we don't see any major recognisable cities until we get to Leeds or Sheffield.

London-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow please.

Ignore Birmingham? Nothing is more notable than the second city, so I guess not.

Literally have a 7 stop service.

London
Birmingham
Manchester
Leeds
Newcastle
Edinburgh
Glasgow

There's a max of about an hour between each right?

[Parkey]

That's a bad route Dave because it misses out Nottingham, and Nottingham's great.

I'd go with High Speed Two as recommended by Greengauge21, going up far enough to bypass the Stafford bottleneck and then I'd switch my attention to the east coast. High Speed Three.

There's very little demand for the WCML north of Carlisle, and so it wouldn't be a good economic case to add a new line there. The case for high speed lines in the UK is based on increasing capacity on congested routes, so the southern ECML would definately be the next priority.

The more I think about it I prefer a route along these lines:

Central London
Stratford
Stansted Airport
Cambridge
Peterborough
Nottingham
Sheffield
Leeds (Parkway)
Newcastle
Edinburgh
Glasgow

Obviously fast intercity trains wouldn't stop at all of these, but there's always potential for further expansion of the Javelin commuter train network.

Branch off from HS1 after Stratford. Follow M11 to Cambridge. Follow A14 and then A1(M) south of Peterborough (with jct to ECML). Approach Nottingham from south east with a new tunnel into a rebuilt Nottingham Victoria (jct off for Nottingham Midland and Derby). Use existing tunnels under Nottingham city centre and Robin Hood Line corridor to reach M1, and follow M1 to Sheffield. Continue north to a parkway station east of Leeds. Use/upgrade/follow ECML for rest of route.

[Ameecher]

In my opinion, Nottingham doesn't really need it, the MML needs upgrading to 125 and perhaps a revised stopping pattern would put Nottingham (and Derby, Leicester and Sheffield) all within a respectable travelling time of London.

[Parkey]

I think it's fairly certain that if there is going to be a new eastern HSL Nottingham and Sheffield will be on it. Nottingham's the biggest population centre in the east until you reach Leeds, and Sheffield currently has very bad connectivity to London via the MML (3hrs+ I believe).

The alternative to the line via Cambridge is a branch off from the suggested HS2 at Birmingham International that effectively follows the M42 across to Derby, presumably with links to East Midlands Airport/Parkway, and then to the North via Sheffield. This is my interpretation of the Greengauge report anyway.

There are two disadvantages to this route. Firstly it would place heavy demand on the southern section of HS2. Secondly, let's not forget that the case for high speed rail in the UK is based on capacity, not just journey times to Scotland, and the biggest capacity problems are in the south near London, not between Birmingham and Derby. A line to Cambridge and Peterborough would boost capacity on some of the most overcrowded commuter routes in the country. It would also provide better financial returns to fund the extension of the lines northward.