19th Century European Continental Locomotives?

[Royal Bavarian]

I give up. I'm desperately searching for information on engines used in continental Europe, especially Germany, during the 19th century, but it looks like this is nowhere to be found.

You can get a load of information on German trains and engines starting in the early 1900's, not least from modellers like Märklin etc, but before this - NOTHING! It's like no one cares!

It's really strange, like around 1903 everyone just burnt the records and nobody remember what trains they were driving for over half a century.

If anyone knows about any site concerning the subject matter, please help me out (it doesn't matter if it's in German, I'm a Swede, but I can read it)!

[Dave]

I get the feeling that someone like Michael Blunck is the man to turn to on this occasion.

He's especially knowledgable about all things German train-wise and in fact just knowledgable about trains in general.

I think he might be God.

[Royal Bavarian]

Thankyou, Dave. You think it's safe to write this gentleman... erm, I mean god... an e-mail/pm?

Further research has provided some hints in general, but not much specific information, especially in terms of images. Obviously, continental Europe lagged behind the United States in locomotive design, at least in terms of size and wheel arrangement, but I need to know how much and when.
For now for example, it looks like both Sweden and the Grand Duchy of Finland in fact introduced 4-4-0's ahead of any German railroads.
A private railroad in Finland bought "Americans" directly from Baldwin in 1875. Private locomotive works in Sweden provided the Swedish State Railways with 4-4-0's of their own design from 1886 and on. German railroads on the other hand, like the Royal Prussian and Royal Bavarian, seem to have used 2-4-0's for express service right up till about 1893 (albeit looking their age and apparently of advanced design).
I had not expected this.

[michael blunck]

You think it's safe to write this gentleman [...] an e-mail/instant message?

Not needed as I just spotted your post.

I'm desperately searching for information on engines used in continental Europe, especially Germany, during the 19th century, but it looks like this is nowhere to be found.

This information can be found usually in books but not so much on the net.

You can get a load of information on German trains and engines starting in the early 1900's, not least from modellers like Märklin etc, but before this - NOTHING! It's like no one cares!

Well, there´s a special problem concerning Germany because of the transition from the former "Länderbahnen" (Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Baden, Württemberg, Oldenburg, Mecklenburg, ..) to the DRG (German Imperial Railway Company) in 1920. The DRG didn´t take over all that ancient stuff from the Länderbahnen, but concentrated on a couple of models besides carrying out her own building programme. That´s why those engines not taken over are somewhat "forgotten".

Obviously, continental Europe lagged behind the United States in locomotive design, at least in terms of size and wheel arrangement, but I need to know how much and when.

Well, I wouldn´t say that Europe "lagged behind" the US. There were cutting-edge designs in Europe as well, but o/c we didn´t had those large sizes of US locomotives over here, mainly due to track limitations.

German railroads, like the Royal Prussian and Royal Bavarian, on the other hand seem to have used 2-4-0's for express service right up till about 1893 (albeit looking their age and apparently of advanced design).
I had not expected this.

4-4-0 (or 2'B) was the usual axle scheme for fast passenger locomotives, usually allowing for 100 or even 120 km/h. (E.g., pr.S3, wü. AD, sä. XIII 2, sä. XIII V1). There were however still some 1'Bs (2-4-0) like the later BR34s (meck. P3, sä. III, sä. VIbV, wü. A, wü. Ac) (All engines named before 1900.)

regards
Michael

[Royal Bavarian]

Not needed as I just spotted your post.

Excellent.

This information can be found usually in books but not so much on the net.

I see. Are you able to recommend any good titles, available through Amazon or similar? I'm above all interested in the specific types and models used both by Länder- & Privatbahnen (and both prior to and after 1871) - the common trains of their day - not merely the general railroad development. The book(s) should contain numerous plates and illustrations, some technical data and not least what years various locomotives were in use. In fact, international comparisons could also be nice.

It doesn't matter if it's very technical (as long as it's got good pictures ), or it could be as popularly held as this article (but in regards to Germany and/or the continent):
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/absa1.Html

Essentially, you should be able to build a tycoon game out of it.

4-4-0 (or 2'B) was the usual axle scheme for fast passenger locomotives, usually allowing for 100 or even 120 km/h. (E.g., pr.S3, wü. AD, sä. XIII 2, sä. XIII V1). There were however still some 1'Bs (2-4-0) like the later BR34s (meck. P3, sä. III, sä. VIbV, wü. A, wü. Ac) (All engines named before 1900.)

Thanks for providing so many examples. I wonder though, aren't all these machines basically “fin de siècle”, meaning they were built post 1890? I don’t have the resources to check it up right now, but perhaps you could tell straight away?
Thing is, I originally thought I was going to find lots of 2'B locos running on the continent in the 1870's-1880's, but at least in regards to Germany, no such luck yet.

[michael blunck]

Are you able to recommend any good titles [?]

Well, the best choice would be the books from "Alba Publishing", i.e. their "Railway Vehicles Archive".

Apart from the well-known 4 volumes on DRG engines,

- the two volumes on saxon steam locomotives (2.1 and 2.2, ISBN 3870940964, 426 pages),

- the one about bavarian locomotives (2.5, ISBN 3870941057, 400 pages),

- those about the engines of Württemberg (2.6, ISBN 3870941170, 172 pages) and Baden (2.7, ISBN 3870941189, 197 pages),

- as well as Mecklenburg and Oldenburg (2.8, ISBN 3870941251, 181 pages) would be of interest.

For Prussia, there´s a special series of three volumes:

- 2.3.1 express and passenger locomotives (ISBN 3870941332, 331 pages)
- 2.3.2 freight locomotives (ISBN 3870941340, 210 pages)
- 2.3.3 tank engines (ISBN 3870941359, 238 pages)

For France, there´s volume "F1.1" with engines of Alsace-Lorraine (ISBN 3870941421, 323 pages),

For Austria, there´s "A.1" with austrian steamers (ISBN 3870941103, 286 pages).

These are definitely "THE books" about german steam locomotives. For each loco type, there´s a thorough technical description, a couple of black and white historical photographies, an expertise text about the loco model (development and usage), and detailed technical data.

You may have difficulties to get these books, though. The best way would be to try ebay or by a visit to antiquary book shops (also by internet). I´ve got nearly all my railway books second hand.

O/c there are hundreds of other books but not in my book shelf.

Thanks for providing so many examples. I wonder though, aren't all these machines basically “fin de siècle”, meaning they were built post 1890?

Yes. Those were the engines taken over by DRG but built before 1900.

Thing is, I originally thought I was going to find lots of 2'B locos running on the continent in the 1870's-1880's, but at least in regards to Germany, no such luck yet.

Mmh, yes. Meanwhile I checked my books and indeed, the 2'B axle scheme wasn´t very common in German countries during that era. Except from one saxon engine, 2'Bs have been used only by the railway companies of Baden and Württemberg, but not in Prussia or Bavaria.


German 2'B steam locomotives used between 1850-1890

wü. III 1846-1913 built: Kessler/Esslingen/Maffei 38 units
wü: V 1854- 5
wü. VI 1854-1922
wü. VII 1856-1922 51
wü. E 1859-1905
bad. XII (later III) 1861-1892 MGK
wü. B 1865-1905
sä. VIII 1 1870-
bad IIIa 1873 Grafenstaden 17
bad IIa 1888-1925 24

These should be more interesting for you due to the more adequate time frame, although this isn´t that much.

regards
Michael

[NitrousX]

For the dutch classic steamers there are a number of books that are specific for those engines (5 different books)
They really give detailed information about these locomotives.

For early 1900 locomotives there is little information it starts from around 1920.

[Dave]

Thanks for a fascinating insight here, Michael. Are any of these books printed in English? I'd like to have a read.

[Royal Bavarian]

Wonderful. These were precisely the sort of books I was looking for. My trust in the sense of German meticulousness regarding academic endevor has been very much restored. Thankyou.
A quick search revealed several of these volumes are indeed available second hand from Amazon. I'm thinking about acquiring at least Württemberg, Baden and Bayern. Would like to have Prussia too, but that's three volumes... Hm, maybe later.

Thing is, apart from dreaming of a Transport game covering also the classic era of railroading, I've come to the conclusion Germany presents a real world scenario with quite some potential all by itself. The Länderbahnen could lend themselves nicely to a multi-competitor setup. The borders of the German states could also be utilized as relatively protective zones regarding company interference and station "hook up".

So the Royal Württemberg, the Baden Grand Ducal and to some extent Saxony did have 4-4-0's, in Württemberg as early as the 1840's? Pheuw... I'm so relieved. In the 1840's United States, the "American" was still in its infancy and far from acquiring its distinct shape as well (this was reached in the early 1850's). This means Germany (and therefore Europe) wasn't trailing in engine design to the extent I had feared. The apparently felt lack of need to widely adopt the wheel arrangement in the German states is of course another matter entirely.
This could otherwise have become a game design stumble block: "What, 50 years and no fundamentally new locomotives!". Also, having what looks like more advanced locomotives in Sweden decades before they reached the continent did feel a bit awkward.

Dave, I'm afraid I doubt these books are likely to exist in English translation. Maybe the technical data and short (?) descriptions aren't that difficult to grasp in any case. There is always that much you can understand from any language.

[michael blunck]

[...] A quick search revealed several of these volumes are indeed available second hand from Amazon. I'm thinking about acquiring at least Württemberg, Baden and Bayern. Would like to have Prussia too, but that's three volumes... Hm, maybe later.

Well, IMO Amazon is generally too expensive concerning second-hand books, especially with regards to these somewhat rare ones.

You said you could read German? Then try out http://www.zvab.de. They´re offering second-hand books of dozens of german, dutch and danish book stores. Or try out http://www.abebooks.de (or abebooks.co.uk).

I.e. for "Schnabel: Lokomotiven bayerischer Eisenbahnen", on zvab I find four entries up to 20 Euros:

15 Euro, condition: "very good"
17.50 Euro, "good"
18 Euro,
20 Euro, "very good"

Instead, the cheapest Amazon offer starts at 19.90 Euro.

Generally, prices differ substantially between book stores (w/o reason ), i.e., I often got a book for 10 Euros by one store which would cost much more either new or second-hand at another. E.g., I got my copy of the "Bäzold Bible" (Electric Locomotives of German Railways), 415 pages with hundreds of historical photographies, all the technical details, etc. ,pp., for just 8.50 Euros in a real "mint" condition, where the price for a new copy would have been 34.80 Euro. )

Getting those books through Ebay is more or less a game of chance. Usually, some noobs are driving prices as high as for a new book.

Thing is, apart from dreaming of a Transport game covering also the classic era of railroading, I've come to the conclusion Germany presents a real world scenario with quite some potential all by itself. The Länderbahnen could lend themselves nicely to a multi-competitor setup. The borders of the German states could also be utilized as relatively protective zones regarding company interference and station "hook up".

Yes, that´s a good idea. In fact, I was planning something similar for my AlpineVehislces set, i.e., you could use either swiss or austrian engines, or both. Problem is that currently there´s no support to restrict vehicles from one class to one player or to a set of certain depots, so each player *could* use whatever material he wants.

So the Royal Württemberg, the Baden Grand Ducal and to some extent Saxony did have 4-4-0's, in Württemberg as early as the 1840's? Pheuw... I'm so relieved. In the 1840's United States, the "American" was still in its infancy and far from acquiring its distinct shape as well (this was reached in the early 1850's).

Regarding Württemberg, the earliest 2'B locomotives were in fact american built. The type "I" to be used on the newly built Cannstadt-Untertürkheim route had been delivered in 1845 by Norris of Philadelphia, and the class "II" engines (a 1'B type) had been aquired from Baldwin.

Both types of engines were ordered simultaneously to carry out test runs on the notorious problematic routes found throughout Württemberg (tight curves, steep slopes, ...). In these runs, the 2'B type turned out as the better choice and the 1'B engines were quickly sold to the Swiss Nordostbahn.

Interesting point is that the needed quantities of 2'Bs weren´t ordered from the US then, but due to "better material and processing quality", a contract for six engines was awarded in 1845 to Kessler of Karlsruhe. Three more engines have been built by Maffei of Munich in 1847 and the largest part of the order (additional 32 units) was delivered by Maschinenfabrik Esslingen until 1854.

This means Germany (and therefore Europe) wasn't trailing in engine design to the extent I had feared. The apparently felt lack of need to widely adopt the wheel arrangement in the German states is of course another matter entirely.

Well, almost all of the german Länderbahnen had their own specific problems and developed own solutions to it. Generally speaking, the southern states needed engines for mountainous terrain but early Prussia (and Mecklenburg as well as Oldenburg) was flat. BTW, I have a map on my site showing the german countries of the German Empire 1871-1918, so you can easily find out in which part of Germany a certain railway company had been active.

In general, the railways of southern Germany were most advanced, from a technical point of view. At the end of the century, Baden, Bavaria and Württemberg were building leading-edge steam locomotives with modern bar frames, compound steam and other finesses. Although these engines were satisfying in terms of power and speed, they were not easy to maintain and hence gave rise to high maintenance costs.

In contrast, the head of the KPEV (Royal Prussian Railway Administration) locomotive department, Robert Garbe, held the view that "a good steamer should be possible to maintain even in a cowshed in the most remote corner of eastern Prussia" - an opinion very much different from the enthusiasm for leading-edge technologies represented by his south-german collegues.

In this way, these different philosophies lead to very differing building styles.

Of special interest for the connaisseur are the locomotives of Saxony, whose leading engineers were notorious for their preference of unusual design concepts. Over a long time frame Saxony used Mallets, Fairlies or the own "Klien-Lindner" design, especially for narrow-gauge locomotives.

Dave, I'm afraid I doubt these books are likely to exist in English translation.

Yes, they´re in German.

Maybe the technical data and short (?) descriptions aren't that difficult to grasp in any case. There is always that much you can understand from any language.

Well, German should be easily understandable for an English speaker. Isn´t it?

regards
Michael