Tragedy in Montenegro - train disaster!

[Wile E. Coyote]

Yesterday was big train disaster in Montenegro near Podgorica. Train was full of passengers, and suddenly brakes were broken down. Railroad was downhill, and there was no control over train, train went on curve, and because of high speed was impossible to stay on tracks. It falled down in 30 meters deep canyon. Over 40 people died (last night news) and about 135 injured. There was many kids in train, about 75 was injured. Rescuing is problem because of hard to access terrain, and was dark (tragedy happened about 4 p. m.) and windy. What a catastrophy! Serbia and Croatia offered help in people, blood units, hospitalization.

[Hyronymus]

I saw some footage on the news here, really looks bad . Probably the worst thing you can imagine when going downhill on a train.

[Moriarty]

So a train's brakes failed when it was going downhill, and after skipping a corner it ends up in a canyon? That sounds like something Hollywood would come up with (series of bad events).

There seems to be consensus of at least 44 dead.

Don't they have redundant brakes on trains? Or even brakes independent for each carriage (I think that's how they work for passenger trains). It's a single-point of failure that can result in accidents. In car's the engine has the ability to keep the car's speed in check on hills.
I'm sure there are quite a few peeps around here with more knowledge of train brakes than I. Any comments?

[Daan Timmer]

So a train's brakes failed when it was going downhill, and after skipping a corner it ends up in a canyon? That sounds like something Hollywood would come up with (series of bad events).

There seems to be consensus of at least 44 dead.

Don't they have redundant brakes on trains? Or even brakes independent for each carriage (I think that's how they work for passenger trains). It's a single-point of failure that can result in accidents. In car's the engine has the ability to keep the car's speed in check on hills.
I'm sure there are quite a few peeps around here with more knowledge of train brakes than I. Any comments?

Well I do know here in holland you have to push the brakes theoratically to not to brake

So when you release pressure on the brakes, the brakes start to break.
So if the brakes pressure fails, the train will stop automagically

[XeryusTC]

So a train's brakes failed when it was going downhill, and after skipping a corner it ends up in a canyon? That sounds like something Hollywood would come up with (series of bad events).

It's a good example of Murphey's law, if something goes wrong, everything goes wrong. This always happens with disasters.

Anyway, it sure is bad that this happens to a train with a load of children in it .
I hope that the people who are still alive stayalive.

[GoneWacko]

Probably the worst thing you can imagine when going downhill on a train.

To be fair, that's probably the worst thing you can imagine with any vehicle, apart from it exploding afterwards, perhaps.

[Wile E. Coyote]

It was RVR 412-416 EMU. I don't know exactly braking system on it. Four days ago it passed technical examination. AFAIK from news, drivers went out of train to fix brakes, because they noticed something is wrong. After that, train went downnhill (25 promils downhill and wind in train's direction). They jumped in train, but they can't stopped it!
I have news: 197 injured (19 critical), 34 kids in hospital, 44 died. Terrible!

[DJC]

Indeed it is terrible, particulary when you see these photos: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4641678.stm

Very unfortunate that the train derailed in the worst possible place.

[chevyrider]

Every train has at least one pneumatic brake.
The hose connects every carriage with each other.
All brake stations in every carriage are filled with 5 bar compressed air.
If the train breaks in two or an emergency brake done by a passenger or a normal brake by the driver, then the air pressure in the total train will decrease.
A triple-valve under each carriage will make an other air-press connection.
Pressure from large air tanks now flows into the brake cylinders, and the train stops.

Two possibilities for the accident.
First:
A defect air compressor, not noticed by the driver.
If the air leaks away very slowly the system could become exhausted.
Second:
A not proper done brake-test.
Before a train leaves the station, you have to test if the whole train is connected by the through going air hose and all brakes are functional.
Besides that brake, there is mostly a direct brake, only on the lok.
A mechanical handbrake and now adays also an electrodynamic brake, with witch you can decelerate by the electro motors.
Finaly of course the dead mans knob, which works on system one.

[RPharazon]

Poor, poor people.
Wrong place, wrong time. It's accidents like this that emphasize the use of redundant systems.

Like this accident that happened on an airplane once. The Jackscrew that basically made the plane fly (With the ailerons and the stabilizers) was so worn down, that it broke, and the plane was sent plummeting into the ocean, spiraling. All 83 people passangers and 5 crew members died.
The thing that the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) found out from that system is why the plane didn't have 2 redundant jackscrews, instead of 1 all-important jackscrew.

I feel sorry for the passengers on that train. I hope no more people die because of that accident.

[ThorRune]

What's a dead mans knob?

This acident seems awfull. I've heard of similar before, in america, allthough it was a goods train and there was no canyon. 2 of the 3 drivers died, the one that survived jumped out of the train IIRC. There, it was a defection in the pnaumatic system, the third wagon not being conected so the huge train only had braking power in the first wagon and the engine.

The 30 meter driop has to be the worst moment in most the passangers lives. Really, falling for a couple of secounds seing certain death aproaching with a ever-increasing speed must be... More then terrifying.

[GoneWacko]

What's a dead mans knob?

A button the train drivers have to keep pressed at all times, if they don't, the train automatically brakes. Just in case the driver has a heart attack or something. Not sure if it's really an english term, it seems like a very literal translation of the dutch word, but either way, that's what it is.

[Shidas]

Bloody sad
but i never heard it before it might be on the world news but i havn't watched the news since like 2 weeks ago so i know nothing about whats happening in the world

[chevyrider]

There, it was a defection in the pneumatic system, the third wagon not being connected so the huge train only had braking power in the first wagon and the engine.

That's why every train has to test the brakes over the full length of the train and not only the front end.
Every traindriver knows that.

About the "dead mans knob". I'm not sure for the English word.
The driver has to push that all the way while driving the train.
It works the same as the emergency brake.
The pneumatic one works after 2 seconds when i take my foot off.
I makes a "hole" in the train hose, so that every brake applies.
It's very hard to put it down all the route, against a spring under the pedal.
This because it has to work if i fall "dead "on that knob.

Modern types are electric.
It's much easier to hold the knob down.
This knob has to be released every 1 minute and then pushed again.
If not brakes work automatically again.
It's save, the train mostly not runs further than 2 km in a minute.
When passing a yellow signal in that time, the ATB or automatic train influence system will make the train will react on that too.
So if every one does what he has to do , train driving is rather save.

[Wile E. Coyote]

It's a good example of Murphey's law, if something goes wrong, everything goes wrong. This always happens with disasters.

Unfortunately, rail in Montenegro has lot of places like that. Montenegro is small mountainous country on sea, that means you have rail 2 km altitude in 100 km length. It has many tunnels, bridges and curves. Builded 30 years ago (many people died during building) it's maintained very poor. Now it's in awful condition and trains are on some parts of railway traveling 30 km/h! It's unsafe. Falls of rocks are frequent. Last year IIRC freight train colided with rocks and driver died. I traveled many times on that railway, it's not good feeling to look out the window in Moraca canyon (it's 2nd in world after Colorado canyon IIRC). There is road in canyon also, and on it are frequent road crashes!

Two possibilities for the accident.
First:
A defect air compressor, not noticed by the driver.
If the air leaks away very slowly the system could become exhausted.
Second:
A not proper done brake-test.
Before a train leaves the station, you have to test if the whole train is connected by the through going air hose and all brakes are functional.
Besides that brake, there is mostly a direct brake, only on the lok.
A mechanical handbrake and now adays also an electrodynamic brake, with witch you can decelerate by the electro motors.
Finaly of course the dead mans knob, which works on system one.

Obviously there is human factor here. Train had general remont 7 months ago, and passed examination 4 days ago. Question is: is examination done correctly?
Unofficial news: driver went out to see what's wrong with brakes. He didn't activated hand brake, and havent put stops before wheels. On one version he jumped in train and he's injured, second version he stayed out of train, anyway he's arrested. AFAIK, in train crew are two drivers. Is it right? If yes, where was second driver? I heard about one more braking system: when you disconnect pantograph from catenary, some brakes are activated. And finally, people tried hand brakes in train, but nothing happened. I can't believe all systems were broken down at the same moment in 4 days!
On that EMU brakes are Oerlikon P type. What are their characteristics?

[chevyrider]

All brakes work on the same way.
Oerlikon or Westinghouse.
There has to be 5 bar in the hose before you can drive.
If it becomes less by applying a brake or something all brakes in the train are activated at once.
If the driver stepped out because a pneumatic malfunction, and the brake stations under each carriage where empty for some reason, the train can roll down hill.
Hand brakes aren't enough the stop an already driving train.
They mostly work on one axle and you cant screw them tight enough to make the train stop.

[ThorRune]

So, if in that situation, the only possible solution is to bail? The driver shoulds made the passangers jump out of the cariges! They probably wouldn't have made it still, but nether did they now :/ That's just a guess by asumption though. Am i right, Chevy?

[Wile E. Coyote]

I just heard unbeliveable news: it was ordered to drivers to continue driving, altough they noticed broken brakes and called center in Podgorica to announce that! Somebody estimated that train can go to downhill (tragedy happened near Podgorica, which is in Skadar Lake valley) without consequences! People stupidity is without frontieres! Obviously some facts are needed to discover, but it wouldn't help to 44 poor people (including 6 kids ).

[George]

are there photos that could explain, what happened? I could found only photos of wagons parts, but are there general views?

[XeryusTC]

Well you can't always predict what will happen, you just can't (happens here in the Netherlands all the time (Enschede, De Hemel anyone)).