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 Post subject: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:00 pm 
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Vehicles form a class that contains four types: rail vehicles, road vehicles, ships and aircraft. One or more models visually represent each type. The game knows how the type and model behave by checking the type and model properties shown in Appendix B - Vehicle type and vehicle model properties.

Some vehicle classes or types require fuel to drive. There are a few types of fuel:
    - coal
    - heavy oil
    - diesel
    - petrol
    - LPG
    - kerosene
    - electricity (normal)
    - electricity (regenerative)
    - fuel cell
Fuel prices vary during the game.

Question 1: Do we accept the following fuel types as the default fuel types for Transport Empire:
    - solid fuels
    - liquid fuels
    - electrical power
Each type can be narrowed down to models for use with the 4 main vehicle
types (rail vehicles, road vehicles, ships and aircraft)?

Question 2: Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:48 pm 
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Hyronymus wrote:
- electricity (normal)
- electricity (regenerative)


What's the difference between those two?

Quote:
Question 1: Do we accept the following fuel types as the default fuel types for Transport Empire:
    - solid fuels
    - liquid fuels
    - electrical power
Each type can be narrowed down to models for use with the 4 main vehicle
types (rail vehicles, road vehicles, ships and aircraft)?


Eh, fine with me. I don't really care TBH.

Quote:
Question 2: Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?


Eh... would that be useful? I guess it's all about the running costs. Tho, if you really want an average fuel consumption of your vehicles, I'd say do a simple fuelcosts / price of fuel = fuelconsumption and that per year or sth. Why would you want to know fuel consumption?

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:51 pm 
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Hyronymus wrote:
Vehicles form a class that contains four types: rail vehicles, road vehicles, ships and aircraft. One or more models visually represent each type. The game knows how the type and model behave by checking the type and model properties shown in Appendix B - Vehicle type and vehicle model properties.

Some vehicle classes or types require fuel to drive. There are a few types of fuel:
    - coal
    - heavy oil
    - diesel
    - petrol
    - LPG
    - kerosene
    - electricity (normal)
    - electricity (regenerative)
    - fuel cell
Fuel prices vary during the game.


i do not believe that these are all the fuel types (technically) as i mentioned in a previous topic. but that covers almost all of them


Hyronymus wrote:
Question 1: Do we accept the following fuel types as the default fuel types for Transport Empire:
    - solid fuels
    - liquid fuels
    - electrical power
Each type can be narrowed down to models for use with the 4 main vehicle
types (rail vehicles, road vehicles, ships and aircraft)?


i disagree that these are the fuel types. i say:
    - solid fuels
    - liquid fuels
    - external power


Hyronumus wrote:
Question 2: Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?


vehicle information should give average fuel consumption at the buying screen, keep this information for the first year and then provide an average from all the all the running costs to date plus the default average (year1 -default average, year 2 default average + actual running cost from year1 divided by 2 etc...)

while actual running cost is calculated in real time and adds up to what you pay (and possibly how and when you have to refuel, if that makes it into the game [i vote yes, it does])

the player doesnt see the real time running cost but does see the actual running cost from that year.

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:12 pm 
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M4rek wrote:
Hyronumus wrote:
Question 2: Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?


vehicle information should give average fuel consumption at the buying screen, keep this information for the first year and then provide an average from all the all the running costs to date plus the default average (year1 -default average, year 2 default average + actual running cost from year1 divided by 2 etc...)

while actual running cost is calculated in real time and adds up to what you pay (and possibly how and when you have to refuel, if that makes it into the game [i vote yes, it does])

the player doesnt see the real time running cost but does see the actual running cost from that year.


If I may disagree with this, I think an *AVERAGE* fuel consumption should be given when the vehicle is purchased, and then a more accurate level later on.

It could get very complicated - what about if you calculated it from weight of wagons and route? I guess I'm getting too far into more suggestion here, but if you want an *accurate* fuel consumption it should be calculated by something like "distance of route", "change in height of route" and "weight of train hauled".

For aircraft, ships and road vehicles - obviously the route, and then the weight of the cargo. Since this may vary, wouldn't it be good to devise running costs real time so thus:

1. Game calculates distance, height, potential weight of vehicle/train.
2. Since it knows distance, it could quite easily determine the "there and back" length and take a value of fuel usage when the train is full weight and then when carrying empty wagons or running light.
3. This would eventually add up to a total cost that, depending on the circumstances in which the vehicle is used, may be more and less than the original average.

If this is too suggestive, simply split it off, Hyronymus.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:33 pm 
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The reason why I choose electrical power instead of external power is that in the early 1920's battery trains became "popuplar". They ride on electricity but carry it with them in batteries. But if that's too far fetched I have no problem settling with external power.

That leaves the second question unanswered in a satisfying way. My problem with fuel consumption is how to determin it. As Dave indicated: it can depend on amount of wagons attached (for trains), route type (flat, hilly) and load. Initially we can specify any value we want but if we want to change it to more accurate predictions over time we run into a problem.

Also, is it worth knowing a more accurate fuel usage after 1 year? I.e. trucks of the same model can have a different fuel consumption after 1 year because of a different route they service. What will players do with that information, will they sell the trucks and replace them? Maybe fun if you have 4 trucks but what if you have 50 or more? I honestly think an average fuel assumption that remains the same over time is enough. It is an average after all.

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:33 pm 
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Dave Worley wrote:
M4rek wrote:
Hyronumus wrote:
Question 2: Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?


vehicle information should give average fuel consumption at the buying screen, keep this information for the first year and then provide an average from all the all the running costs to date plus the default average (year1 -default average, year 2 default average + actual running cost from year1 divided by 2 etc...)

while actual running cost is calculated in real time and adds up to what you pay (and possibly how and when you have to refuel, if that makes it into the game [i vote yes, it does])

the player doesnt see the real time running cost but does see the actual running cost from that year.


If I may disagree with this, I think an *AVERAGE* fuel consumption should be given when the vehicle is purchased, and then a more accurate level later on.


and, may i ask, what exactly did i just say?



Dave wrote:
It could get very complicated - what about if you calculated it from weight of wagons and route? I guess I'm getting too far into more suggestion here, but if you want an *accurate* fuel consumption it should be calculated by something like "distance of route", "change in height of route" and "weight of train hauled".

For aircraft, ships and road vehicles - obviously the route, and then the weight of the cargo. Since this may vary, wouldn't it be good to devise running costs real time so thus:

1. Game calculates distance, height, potential weight of vehicle/train.
2. Since it knows distance, it could quite easily determine the "there and back" length and take a value of fuel usage when the train is full weight and then when carrying empty wagons or running light.
3. This would eventually add up to a total cost that, depending on the circumstances in which the vehicle is used, may be more and less than the original average.

If this is too suggestive, simply split it off, Hyronymus.


1) you seem to forget that the route could easily change in real time
2)good suggestions nonetheless, just find some wa around point 1

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Hyronymus wrote:
The reason why I choose electrical power instead of external power is that in the early 1920's battery trains became "popuplar". They ride on electricity but carry it with them in batteries. But if that's too far fetched I have no problem settling with external power.


i dont have a problem with that, so we include battery/cell power and think of a name for the category.


Hyronymus wrote:
That leaves the second question unanswered in a satisfying way. My problem with fuel consumption is how to determin it. As Dave indicated: it can depend on amount of wagons attached (for trains), route type (flat, hilly) and load. Initially we can specify any value we want but if we want to change it to more accurate predictions over time we run into a problem.

Also, is it worth knowing a more accurate fuel usage after 1 year? I.e. trucks of the same model can have a different fuel consumption after 1 year because of a different route they service. What will players do with that information, will they sell the trucks and replace them? Maybe fun if you have 4 trucks but what if you have 50 or more? I honestly think an average fuel assumption that remains the same over time is enough. It is an average after all.



well, we have to consider weight, speed, horsepower, uphill/downhill, gradient, weather, fuel consumption (as determined by factory standards...), horsepower, stuff that the vehicle is good at (ie somethings are good for heavy freight and therefore require less running costs than vehicles not suited for heavy freight...) as well as distance and road conditions. some or more of these dont apply to some vehicles. some or more of these apply to some vehicles if slightly renamed

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Everyone has a photographic memory - Some just don't have film
No matter how hard life gets, remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just hope it's not a train.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Which makes it almost impossible to calculate I think. And still: what does a player do with the information? It's too late to cancel the deal as you already bought the vehicles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:00 pm 
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he might sell the vehicle if it happens to be unsuitable for the route. he may, instead of selling it, have it shipped somewhere else...

as for total fuel consumptions? its means ho much he needs to pay. for averages, it gives an impression of how the vehicle performs, and for dynamic average fuel consumptions (annual) he gets the idea of how well the vehicle performs on that route

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Everyone has a photographic memory - Some just don't have film
No matter how hard life gets, remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just hope it's not a train.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:10 pm 
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You could mention fuel usage (in money) per distance in the purchase window, just like running cost.

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:52 pm 
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Question 2: wrote:
Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?
Code:
mean[grade*speed*weight]
----------------------- = £____ in that journey
100/efficiency (0.1~1)

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:57 pm 
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m3henry wrote:
Question 2: wrote:
Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?
Code:
mean[grade*speed*weight]
----------------------- = £____ in that journey
100/efficiency (0.1~1)


now factor in distance, type of road, road conditions

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Everyone has a photographic memory - Some just don't have film
No matter how hard life gets, remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just hope it's not a train.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:11 pm 
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And what is efficiency? How is that calculated? It's relly too far fetched.

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 Post subject: Re: [DD] Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:13 pm 
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M4rek wrote:
m3henry wrote:
Question 2: wrote:
Do we want vehicle information to give an average fuel consumption (how to determin the average)?
Code:
mean[grade*speed*weight]
----------------------- = £____ in that journey
100/efficiency (0.1~1)
now factor in distance, type of road, road conditions
that isn't really going to affect cost, that would affect speed, that calculation works for all land transport, boats would change the grade to hydrodynamics, and planes to aerodynamics I suppose.
hyronymus wrote:
And what is efficiency? How is that calculated? It's relly too far fetched.
it is a set number, how much of the coal's (15%)/deisel's (30%) energy is turned into HP? (over head wiring would be set for the length of wires.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:09 pm 
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So efficiency is a figure out of the top hat? That way the entire formula for fuel consumption becomes based on a confounded figure that lacks any validation.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:14 pm 
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ill figure it out for ya hyro, i can do things like that...
but not right now

i need to go to bed

and i believe question one is answered with the 4 types i suggested? (your 3 and my fourth if ya have to be picky)

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No matter how hard life gets, remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just hope it's not a train.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:25 pm 
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Yes, question 1 is answered. No more discussion on fuel types, the 3 fuel types are:
    - solid fuel
    - liquid fuel
    - external power

Let's forget about battery trains for now.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:47 pm 
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Quite. Lock this one, Hyronymus, I think we're quite sure where we're going with it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:39 am 
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M4rek wrote:
ill figure it out for ya hyro, i can do things like that...
but not right now

i need to go to bed



we're not finished yet worley...

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Everyone has a photographic memory - Some just don't have film
No matter how hard life gets, remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel. Let's just hope it's not a train.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:57 am 
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We've answered both questions in the first post.

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