ON TOPIC ONLY
Also from Hellfire's list:
Hellfire thought we would leave out depots as places from where a vehicle is bought and(/or) from where it starts a service. I agree that having depots is not very realistic and a suggestion has been made to have engine shops. In an engine shop you order (new) vehicles. How do they reach their first stop though?
[FRDF] Depots
Moderator: Transport Empire Moderators
IRL I supose that railway factories are connected to the national railway network.
Well perhaps make them just apear on the first station stop. Maybe they should occupy that track little longer while they assemles, than a normal stop.
If we choose to implement this idea or a simular idea, why not let the stations take over the role that depots have? Ie trains are served at stations.
Or we can integrate the deport with stations by having have service 'platforms' that can service, assemble, dispand trains and attach/deattach locos/carriages to trains. Maybe normal platforms should be able to service, assembel and dispand trains and attach/deattach locos/carriages to trains too.
Well perhaps make them just apear on the first station stop. Maybe they should occupy that track little longer while they assemles, than a normal stop.
If we choose to implement this idea or a simular idea, why not let the stations take over the role that depots have? Ie trains are served at stations.
Or we can integrate the deport with stations by having have service 'platforms' that can service, assemble, dispand trains and attach/deattach locos/carriages to trains. Maybe normal platforms should be able to service, assembel and dispand trains and attach/deattach locos/carriages to trains too.
My OpenTTD contributions (AIs, Game Scripts, patches, OpenTTD Auto Updater, and some sprites)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
The main reason I don't like depots for service is they are among the weakest links in a TTD network. Trains have to enter and exit them through the same single acces and they give problems with signalling.
I don't mind some kind of "service" building, as long as it's a building you build on existing track, so it doesn't mess up our networks. You could add them next to existing stations or somewhere in the middle of nowhere (to refuel the loco or something). But, depending on the global scale of the map, it might be a good idea not to force trains to stop, just passing through could be enough to service them. If they have to stop too often, these stop-times have a much higher influence on the travel time than your engine's speed.
I don't mind some kind of "service" building, as long as it's a building you build on existing track, so it doesn't mess up our networks. You could add them next to existing stations or somewhere in the middle of nowhere (to refuel the loco or something). But, depending on the global scale of the map, it might be a good idea not to force trains to stop, just passing through could be enough to service them. If they have to stop too often, these stop-times have a much higher influence on the travel time than your engine's speed.
I think there is low risk that deports will be made with only one combined entrace and exit. If they will be implemented in one ore another way, they will certanly be drive-trought.
About placement: Why place them on the main track? Why not place them on a side track?
About non-stop service: I agree that if trains have to brake at every service that is placed inline that can lead to unwanted side effects. But if you place them on a side track will that solve the problem? Or what about just a slowdown?
About placement: Why place them on the main track? Why not place them on a side track?
About non-stop service: I agree that if trains have to brake at every service that is placed inline that can lead to unwanted side effects. But if you place them on a side track will that solve the problem? Or what about just a slowdown?
My OpenTTD contributions (AIs, Game Scripts, patches, OpenTTD Auto Updater, and some sprites)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Depots as in TTD were fine, it's just the way the routing across junctions worked (or didn't, as the case may be). As nice as it would be to just magically pick up a train that's going the wrong way or blocking a line, things just don't work that way, and ultimately, it's nice to just be able to put things somewhere while you move them.
You need to be able to have multiple depot layouts, though. Some with one entrance track, some with track at either side of the depot, etc. Multiple sizes is also good. Long ones, short ones, wide ones, narrow ones. They should work like magic bags, in that once something is in, it doesn't matter where it is, only that it's in there, and that it can come out if you need it. But they need capacity. For example, a depot might be able to hold up to 60 items, with nothing more than 10 items long. When something wants to go in, it looks to see first if there's enough free space, and then if what's in there can be arranged to leave a single block of free space long enough for it. If you have a depot capable of holding 60 cars, with nothing longer than 10, and you have 11 4-car EMUs inside, while you're only using up 44/60, you can't create a gap long enough for a 10-car train (proof not within the scope of this post).
You need to be able to have multiple depot layouts, though. Some with one entrance track, some with track at either side of the depot, etc. Multiple sizes is also good. Long ones, short ones, wide ones, narrow ones. They should work like magic bags, in that once something is in, it doesn't matter where it is, only that it's in there, and that it can come out if you need it. But they need capacity. For example, a depot might be able to hold up to 60 items, with nothing more than 10 items long. When something wants to go in, it looks to see first if there's enough free space, and then if what's in there can be arranged to leave a single block of free space long enough for it. If you have a depot capable of holding 60 cars, with nothing longer than 10, and you have 11 4-car EMUs inside, while you're only using up 44/60, you can't create a gap long enough for a 10-car train (proof not within the scope of this post).
I did some thinking. Check the image below.
NOTE:
Explanation by the images:
You start building three train stations (A, B and F) and establish a direct connection (see Hellfire's topic) between A and F. Next you would need a depot for your trains to enter the service you set up. Here's the trick: the computer checks for the presence of a depot at station A or F. If it doesn't find a depot at A or F the player gets a message: 'Where do you want to build your depot: Station A or Station F?'. Although depending on available space the player can then choose for either A or F.
Now you want to connect Station B to Station F, allowing your train to go from Station A -> F-> B. As soon as you created a direct connection between Station F and Station B the computer will again check for the presence of a depot along the route. Since you build a depot at Station F earlier on (believe me, you did) it won't prompt the player with the question where to build a depot.
You can easily see for yourself that this approach works for every vehicle type. For RV's I imagined this system to be more flexible. You can do with a garage not immediatly near a busstop, as long as it's inside the town you're servicing or in one of the towns you run the bus between. For all other vehicle types the hallmark is that the depot is build next to a station as if it was a service building. I can't deny that Zuu and Pjaytycy forced be to think in that direction
.
NOTE:
- upper left corner = train station + depot
- upper right corner = airport + hangar
- lower right corner = harbour + dock
- lower left corner = busstop + garage
Explanation by the images:
You start building three train stations (A, B and F) and establish a direct connection (see Hellfire's topic) between A and F. Next you would need a depot for your trains to enter the service you set up. Here's the trick: the computer checks for the presence of a depot at station A or F. If it doesn't find a depot at A or F the player gets a message: 'Where do you want to build your depot: Station A or Station F?'. Although depending on available space the player can then choose for either A or F.
Now you want to connect Station B to Station F, allowing your train to go from Station A -> F-> B. As soon as you created a direct connection between Station F and Station B the computer will again check for the presence of a depot along the route. Since you build a depot at Station F earlier on (believe me, you did) it won't prompt the player with the question where to build a depot.
You can easily see for yourself that this approach works for every vehicle type. For RV's I imagined this system to be more flexible. You can do with a garage not immediatly near a busstop, as long as it's inside the town you're servicing or in one of the towns you run the bus between. For all other vehicle types the hallmark is that the depot is build next to a station as if it was a service building. I can't deny that Zuu and Pjaytycy forced be to think in that direction
.
Last edited by Hyronymus on 03 Feb 2005 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
@Hyronymus' suggestion:
Does a vehicle need to enter these depots to be serviced? If so, I don't like them not being drive-through.
If they are just "imaginary" there, and the trains automaticly get service when they are loading/unloading in a station with a depot next to it, then it's fine with me.
I don't really care about depots for buying vehicles, that's not a big influence on the networks. Depots for servicing vehicles on the other hand, have to be carefully balanced so they are not -too- annoying.
Does a vehicle need to enter these depots to be serviced? If so, I don't like them not being drive-through.
If they are just "imaginary" there, and the trains automaticly get service when they are loading/unloading in a station with a depot next to it, then it's fine with me.
I don't really care about depots for buying vehicles, that's not a big influence on the networks. Depots for servicing vehicles on the other hand, have to be carefully balanced so they are not -too- annoying.
Hyronymus: How will the computer know where to place the Deport given that you have selected a station. I can imagne that a such sustem will place the deport on anoying places for some people. Especially on more complex networks.
My idea:
I'm not sure if the deport should be a part of the station. Guess what anoying if a train first move to the cargo/passengers platform, and then to the depots that is only accecable for trains that have not wet entered a crago/passengers platform. Offcorce you could solve that by allow the player to in the schdule tell in what order the train should do things.
So basicly you have to be able to specify if the train should go to the crago/passengers platforms or the deport first. Either by making them seperate stations (as in TTD) or by making it possiblke to specify in which order the vehicles should visit platforms, depots etc.
I'm going to create a concept station (in TTD) which have a station building for cargo/passengers and one for service/attach cehicles/deattach vehicles.
But I'm quite flexible for which idea we use. Just make depots drive-trought if they are used at all.
My idea:
I'm not sure if the deport should be a part of the station. Guess what anoying if a train first move to the cargo/passengers platform, and then to the depots that is only accecable for trains that have not wet entered a crago/passengers platform. Offcorce you could solve that by allow the player to in the schdule tell in what order the train should do things.
So basicly you have to be able to specify if the train should go to the crago/passengers platforms or the deport first. Either by making them seperate stations (as in TTD) or by making it possiblke to specify in which order the vehicles should visit platforms, depots etc.
I'm going to create a concept station (in TTD) which have a station building for cargo/passengers and one for service/attach cehicles/deattach vehicles.
But I'm quite flexible for which idea we use. Just make depots drive-trought if they are used at all.
My OpenTTD contributions (AIs, Game Scripts, patches, OpenTTD Auto Updater, and some sprites)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
I think that would be a good solution. The depot then only serves as a place where engines are bought and 'imaginairy' maintained.PJayTycy wrote:If they are just "imaginary" there, and the trains automaticly get service when they are loading/unloading in a station with a depot next to it, then it's fine with me.
I'm not sure if that would be the biggest problem to solve but you can always add steps:zuu wrote:Hyronymus: How will the computer know where to place the Deport given that you have selected a station. I can imagne that a such sustem will place the deport on anoying places for some people. Especially on more complex networks.
- build Stations A and F
- create a direct link between Stations A and F
- computer checks for depot already present
- if not present -> where do you want it, Station A or F?
- auto-zoom to selected station
- open 'Construct Depot' window
- manually construct the depot where you want
That would make it very complicated. They way I directed the depot doesn't have to be the way we do it in TE. If we allow depots to be build sheer on the main line (= under 90 degrees angle) the depots would be accessible from both directions. If a station has more than 1 track you would need junctions of course but perhaps the earlier suggested auto-generated track/junction tool could help here too.zuu wrote:I'm not sure if the deport should be a part of the station [...] or by making it possiblke to specify in which order the vehicles should visit platforms, depots etc.
I don't think we need engine sheds, whilst dropping trains onto stations isn't realistic, it hardly detracts from the gameplay. Also, remember we don't need a super realistic version as that may be more trouble than it's worth.
Any kind of depots need to be shrunk from real size in some way, or they'll probaly take up too much room on the map. Whilst this may not be a problem on huge maps in terms of overall space, it would be hard to make them fit in confined city spaces. In real life situations, the train may go far away from it's normal route in order to service, but as this is a game and you want to see constant profit, this wouldn't be very suitable.
I like the idea of trains stopping at stations for a brief service the most, causing a gap between unloading and loading. This amount of time could be tweaked between stations, trains and groups of trains, depending on their types, distance of travel and cargo. In this way, older train routes could be given longer service periods, so they can hang on to what little life they have and still make money.
Life size depot and storage areas might be nice to watch, but also consider the depth of the code needed to organize trains moving in and out.. without causing choas. Imagine a large TTD station with no pre-signals. Gets messy very quickly.
Any kind of depots need to be shrunk from real size in some way, or they'll probaly take up too much room on the map. Whilst this may not be a problem on huge maps in terms of overall space, it would be hard to make them fit in confined city spaces. In real life situations, the train may go far away from it's normal route in order to service, but as this is a game and you want to see constant profit, this wouldn't be very suitable.
I like the idea of trains stopping at stations for a brief service the most, causing a gap between unloading and loading. This amount of time could be tweaked between stations, trains and groups of trains, depending on their types, distance of travel and cargo. In this way, older train routes could be given longer service periods, so they can hang on to what little life they have and still make money.
Life size depot and storage areas might be nice to watch, but also consider the depth of the code needed to organize trains moving in and out.. without causing choas. Imagine a large TTD station with no pre-signals. Gets messy very quickly.
But who said we should use life-size depots? I didn't and if you got it from my drawings then I must say they didn't have that intention.
There are (at least) two stations for every service, I'm sure you can squeeze them in. For aircrafts you can easily design the airport in such a fashion that hangars appear on a reserved corner of the airport layout. Same goes for harbours and docks and as I mentioned, RV's can have a depot anywhere in the city they serve. Real problem of fitting them in seems to exists only for trains then. I never heard people complaining how hard it is to squeeze in a depot in TTD, it requires some planning.Steve wrote:it would be hard to make them fit in confined city spaces
Here is there screens.
Notes:
* All station platfroms on the screenshots are the same station.
* Platforms with roof unloads/loads train with crago and passengers
* Platforms without roof service trains.
* The signals that would need to be two way in TTDP to work properly are one-way.
As you see the compleete version with deport both after and before takes quite A LOT of space. I also tried to place the deport under the station (see my next post), so there only would need to be one servece place. Depending on how wide the curves have to be this soulution might not be that good.
My conclusion is that if you have big service platforms (deports) you have to have them outside of towns. So probably we have to scale them down as Steve said.
Notes:
* All station platfroms on the screenshots are the same station.
* Platforms with roof unloads/loads train with crago and passengers
* Platforms without roof service trains.
* The signals that would need to be two way in TTDP to work properly are one-way.
As you see the compleete version with deport both after and before takes quite A LOT of space. I also tried to place the deport under the station (see my next post), so there only would need to be one servece place. Depending on how wide the curves have to be this soulution might not be that good.
My conclusion is that if you have big service platforms (deports) you have to have them outside of towns. So probably we have to scale them down as Steve said.
- Attachments
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- Station compleete with 4 Cargo/Passengers platforms and one Service platform before and one after the Cargo/Passengers platforms.
- Deport_ServiceBeforeAndAfter.png (65.93 KiB) Viewed 1074 times
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- Deport/Service before the Cargo/Passengers platforms.
- Deport_ServiceBefore.png (38.4 KiB) Viewed 9998 times
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- Deport/Service after the Cargo/Passengers platforms.
- Deport_ServiceAfter.png (37.88 KiB) Viewed 9999 times
My OpenTTD contributions (AIs, Game Scripts, patches, OpenTTD Auto Updater, and some sprites)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Se my previous post.
- Attachments
-
- Tunnels = Service deport
- Deport_ServiceUnder.png (55.13 KiB) Viewed 9994 times
My OpenTTD contributions (AIs, Game Scripts, patches, OpenTTD Auto Updater, and some sprites)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
What do you mean?Hyronymus wrote:And where is service on the side?
Last pic: Service is in the tunnels, as you cant place stations on each other in TTD. Use your imagnation.
My OpenTTD contributions (AIs, Game Scripts, patches, OpenTTD Auto Updater, and some sprites)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Junctioneer (a traffic intersection simulator)
Hyr's inital drawings: How does a train that goes to the depot, get to the station? Reverse back in?
From the TTD screens, i have to say a seperate service area looks more like a nuisance. But TTD will be more constricting in terms of space. I imagine any depot system we have to be off the side of the track, like Hyr's screen, but it seems out of place still.
(Anyone got the expanded depots graphics? Would make a nicer screenshot if you make larger depots out of it)
From the TTD screens, i have to say a seperate service area looks more like a nuisance. But TTD will be more constricting in terms of space. I imagine any depot system we have to be off the side of the track, like Hyr's screen, but it seems out of place still.
(Anyone got the expanded depots graphics? Would make a nicer screenshot if you make larger depots out of it)
The drawings I made aren't necessarily how I want it to be (again). I think the TTD screenshot I posted is more to what I have in mind. Also, a train only enters or leaves the depot when it's being built or sold. For servicing it just goes to Station F and gets a service while waiting there, because the game knows Station F is linked with a depot.
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