[FRDF] Who builds airports?

[Steve]

If you request for a town to build an airport, you shouldn't have to pay. But you'd get a huge drop in overall ratings if you didn't use it (to prevent you just building airports everywhere, although i don't know why that would help if you didn't use them).
They are still airports belonging to the town, with at least 1 mixed terminal. Maybe you could just get a good deal on your own shiny terminal.

[Hyronymus]

A clearer rewritten proposal:

Company X receives permission from the Local Authority (from here LA) to construct an airport. Immediatly after the airport has been constructed the airport belongs to the LA. Because Company X payed for the construction the LA grants Company X a 10 year 'airport tax'-free contract to use the airport. This contract is rendered null and void if Company X goes bankrupt before these 10 years have passed. The airport taxes are a (random?) figure set by the LA in the same way the (AI/human) player can set fees for allowing competitors to use their track/stations.

Possible option: After the initial 10 years (or earlier if the company who build the airport already went bankrupt) other companies can buy shares in the airport, just as buying shares in industry. The gain here however is different: your company doesn't gain control of the airport but gains control of the 'airport tax'-free status for 10 years.

[Zuu]

Hyronymus: Thanks, that was better.

I think your idea is resonable.

[Hyronymus]

My pleasure. I would like more reactions though.

[PJayTycy]

I'm not so happy with the 10-year agreements, because this will force you to go back to your airports every 10 years even if you didn't change anything about the service. If you pay for the airport, you should have a lifetime contract.

Another proposal: use taxes for each airport-component a plane uses (except taxilanes):

• terminal tax
• runway tax
• town tax

=> So, if you only use an airport every now and then, you just pay the taxes.
=> If you use it a little more, you can build your own terminal, and either make it open for all companies for a price, or make it a private one only you can use.
=> Same goes for runways, if you think waiting times for landing/takeoff are getting too long (and you get approval from the town), add you own runway.
=> Town taxes have to be paid by every company.

Benefit : the company who pays for extensions gets some rewards if they were usefull (eg: the extra terminal/runway was really necessary)

[Zuu]

That sounds ok. But if I want to add a terminal to an airport who decides where to put it? If I own the airport, then its clear that I should place any additional modules. But whatif the town owns the airport, shall there be an AI that places the modules that companies want? Or shall you let every company in and do waht they want.

I see a risk that the airport will get messed up if more than one player/ai can place modules on a single airport.

Maybe the company that builds the airport shall get the controle over where to place additional modules.
+ More fun for players if they are involved in airport expandations
- You might cheat by placing compeetors terminals far from the runways.

Perhaps both parts shall aceept before a new module is placed. (but then the player that has the control can re build the taxi.)


I think maybe there has to be some trust built in. And then AIs that have been fooled can set down the trust rating on players that fools the AI.

[uzurpator]

OK - guys and gals. A check with reality.

_None_ of the airlines built an airport as of yet. All they do is beg the towns to build one - and then they fight for terminals (yes - they _rent_ terminals and gates).

IRL airports are woefully expensive to build and operate.

IMHO the best way would be to make an airport a structure that will be slowly expanded by the town - depending on the ratings and passanger volume. Players would just rent terminals and build their own hangars.

[PJayTycy]

I just checked for Brussels Airport, and 60% of the shares is owned by our government, 40% by different investment groups.

So, uzurpator you are right, no transport companies. But, do we want to be hyper-realistic? I would go for fun above reality.

Besides, most companies only do ships OR trains OR trucks OR planes. DHL is a major exception though

[Hyronymus]

Wasn't the proposal I made (ask the town to buy an airport at your company's expenses) just as close as we can get? If we want to play truly realistic we must add a wealthy goverment and investment groups and that's unrealistic I think. About placing terminals (again): each airport terrain has pre-designed slots where expansion buildings can be built. I.e. terminals are build on 1 of 4 slots in the center, hangars on 1 of 4 slots in the upper left corner etc. This would automaticly limit the maximum numbers of companies to 4 which could be fun.

[Steve]

Hyr, your trying to involve fees for building the airport and contracts, which are much more complicated and such.

I agree that any town's airport should be owned by the town with the companies using it. As for building extensions, it shouldn't matter where your terminal is built, if you see my diagram in the other thread, it's the same distance as the airports follow a uniform structure. Runways can be added automatically, as there is no fair way to own them (and that would be a nightmare for the aircraft controllers)

The tax is good. Should be variable with the amount you actually use the airport. It should never make people regret setting up a plane route, but instead show that buying a terminal may be cheaper overall from the reduced costs of plane fuel (from waiting time) and docking tax.

Town's would also build at least one general solution and maybe another if it's getting really busy and noone wants to cough up the cash. Company built terminals could be sold off to other companies or shared if they need cash. But once you start sharing, you can't just kick them out when you get back on your feet. Buy them out maybe.

[Hyronymus]

Hyr, your trying to involve fees for building the airport and contracts, which are much more complicated and such.

And a stripped version without fees for building the airport and contracts? I can live with that.

[PJayTycy]

I can live with the town owning the airport and each company always pays airport taxes.
In this case companies have to "rent" loading/unloading spots at a terminal, so nobody can block the airport by landing all his airplanes and leaving them occupying the terminals.

As for building a new terminal: the town can offer terminal spots at pre-sale, and when 50% are filled, it actually starts building the terminal. This would prevent building terminals that won't be used anyway.

I don't have a good idea about when a town should start building a new runway. Maybe when the waiting times (fully loaded=>take-off, and request to land=>landing) are getting too long or something.

[Hyronymus]

Too many things being discussed now. We should first vote for who builds the airport, who can initiate the construction and who owns airports:

• A Local authorities initiate, construct and own airports (problem: how to deal with cities that don't initiate at all?)
  
  B Local authorities initiate and construct airports, offering them to players (problem: what if the price is too high and how to deal with cities that don't initiate at all?)
  
  C Local authorities construct and own airports, players initiate the construction (problem: you need a very good rating)
  
  D Local authorities initiate and own airports, players construct them (problem: what if no player can afford to construct it?)
  
  E Local authorities initiate airports, players construct them and own them (problem: unrealistic as no transport company owns airports in real life)
  
  F Local authorities construct airports, players initiate and own them (problem: unrealistic as no transport company owns airports in real life)
  
  G Local authorities own airports, players initiate and construct them (problem: you need a large bag of money)
  
  H Players initiate, construct and own airports (problem: each player would build his own airport; if this is prohibited (1 airport allowed per town) you are forced to share your airport with competitors or beg a competitor to use his airport)

I vote for G: you want the airport so you beg and pay for it too!

[PJayTycy]

Hyronymus, I think construction should be split between "paying" and actually "building" things on the layout. Or is paying included with initiate ?

Which category would my suggestion above be in?

[Hyronymus]

No, you are missing my point. The possibilities I gave are for building the initial airport with standard buildings. Whoever pays and builds additional buildings to expand the initial airport needs a different voting round.

[Zuu]

Just a litle late note:

Some of you say that it is unrealistic that transport companies own the airports. Which I agree. However with your argumenting you can say that transport companies should't own nor construct the railways, as IRL the govorment or a company owned by the govorment builds the railway in a contry, while other companies run the trains.

I think as PJayTycy wrote earlier that the infastructure, airports should be owned and constructed by the companies. Becuse this is a game. And games are made to be fun. Realism can be nice, but in this case that argument does not holds. Becuse than companies shouldn't own the railways neither.

[Hyronymus]

However with your argumenting you can say that transport companies should't own nor construct the railways, as IRL the govorment or a company owned by the govorment builds the railway in a contry, while other companies run the trains.

That is not true. Especially in the early ages of railroad engineering, many railroads were built by private companies and these companies sometimes also received the transportation contract. After WW1 it became popular to protect passengers from ill-servicing railroads though, effectively meaning the state bought railroad companies. To further increase the state's influence on safety and general execution of the railroads, National Railways were erected (almost all before WW2). Nowadays, most national railways have been privatised again (and they have also been split up).

The major problem I foresee if companies own airports are that, no matter how we intended it, players will prevent their competitors from sharing their airport. If we really limit the amount of airports to 1 per town this would result in a air monopoly by the richest company (which automaticly is the company with the most airports. To solve this we can forget about the '1 airport per town' limit but that would severely limit the scale of airports (or you get TTD situations: 3 airports together are as big as the town it services).

[Steve]

Has to be A.

Some of those things have large flaws. If i pay money to build an airport, why should the local authority have any control over it? It's mine! My land, my tarmac, my planes.

I know some things are realistic, but i think having town airports will add strategy from spending money on terminals etc, whilst keeping some sanity around towns. Having TTD and Loco style of multiple airports round in a single town is just silly and ugly.


Lets not forget that these options ONLY matter on town airports. Airports in the middle of nowhere can be built and managed to the player's content!

[Zuu]

Lets not forget that these options ONLY matter on town airports. Airports in the middle of nowhere can be built and managed to the player's content!

Note taken. I Accept that town airports ar built and own by towns.

(A). sounds reasonable, as players will probbaly be happy with the airports that they DO get, and won't leave them unused.

I suggest a combition of (A) and (D): Local authorities construct and own airports, towns or players initiate the construction. (A player would need lot of money and/or verry good rating to initiate an airport.)

[uzurpator]

A player would need lot of money and/or verry good rating to initiate an airport.) [/i]

Or bribe LA - whichever proves cheaper