Steam mod (V2.0) Final

[Captain Kidd]

Hah, yeah, I wrote it myself. I spend a lot of time writing technical details so the habit kicked it.

uzurpator's link is real good, shows all the main parts I was talking about.

This is our working locomotive (there's one in the shop going for a full restore and a few others waiting their turn). Due to space limitations, this particular section of track is steep. So the reverser is ‘in the corner,’ slang for maximum power, and the engineer is opening the throttle more and more by the second. As you can see, all there is is what looks like heat distortion coming out the stack. That small white plume right at the stack is coming from the steam-driven electrical generator used for the headlight and cab lights.

OF course you're not going to be able to keep the stack clear all the time. And actually that picture might be just a hair on the too clear side. The advice we give is you're suppose to be able to see a newspaper through the smoke. Thick smoke means you need to wait and let the fire adjust to the new coal you just added, no smoke means your fire's probably too low, but a thin, brownish-black haze is just right.

maartena: Not yet, I have a few hundred more hours of training to do first, plus I have to get qualifed as a diesel engineer too and my first trip on one is later this month. Soon though.

[Singaporekid]

I alwyas wanted to post it here, but i could never find the right time
So, i'll post it here now http://locofonic.alphalink.com.au

This is his view about steamers http://locofonic.alphalink.com.au/luvloco.htm

Polluting?
We call them Steam Engines. Some people reckon they should be called Smoke Engines. Sometimes they do smoke but that is under control of the crew. If a diesel pollutes, the crew can do nothing about it other than put in a fault report at the end of the trip. Whereas if a steam locomotive pollutes it's due to the crew not being careful enough because, unlike the diesel crew, they do have some control over it. Ever noticed how there is a lot more smoke during a photostop than in normal running.

Photos to prove it
http://locofonic.alphalink.com.au/pix/38clear8.jpg The exhaust is so clear that you can actually see through it
http://locofonic.alphalink.com.au/pix/38white3.jpg Another one taken a bit later
http://locofonic.alphalink.com.au/luvpix3.htm#mullet Steamer travelling at full speed with white steam

[uzurpator]

As a counterweight

http://www.tt-forums.net/download.php?id=7075

[Singaporekid]

Ewww.....

[HwAoRrDk]

Steam does exit via the stack. After leaving the cylinders it has one last function to perform. Entering the bottom of the smokebox, it passes through a nozzle located just below the stack entrance. Due to a venturi effect, the blast of steam exiting the smokebox via the stack and creates a vacuum which then pulls the heated air and gasses from the firebox through the boiler tubes (thus imparting the last bit of energy into the water in the boiler, most of the heating comes from the water around the firebox) and up with the steam out of the stack.

Do some engines not also pass the steam back through special pipes passing through the boiler? I think they call it a 'recirculating boiler'. After all, you don't want some of the heat energy left in the steam to go to waste straight out the top, when it could be heating the water some, do you? Maybe it's just on some of the more advanced locos...

[DanMacK]

This is our working locomotive (there's one in the shop going for a full restore and a few others waiting their turn).
=============
So you fire for TVRM...nice! The 610's a gorgeous loco, that's for sure. Never actually fired a steamer myself, I'd love to do it though.

I also was one of the ones that read that tech post through. Makes perfect sense to me (Even though I already knew a good fireman won't make smoke )

[Captain Kidd]

Do some engines not also pass the steam back through special pipes passing through the boiler? I think they call it a 'recirculating boiler'. After all, you don't want some of the heat energy left in the steam to go to waste straight out the top, when it could be heating the water some, do you? Maybe it's just on some of the more advanced locos...

It wouldn't be piped back into the boiler, the pressure in the boiler would be greater than the steam pressure. (But then I'm not up on all the dozens of different designs they came up with, especially when the threat of diesels were realized). However, on a lot of locomotives, like the one I pictured, the steam, after passing through the throttle valve, is redirected through tubes in the boiler to pick up some last bit of energy before entering the cylinders. Inside the boiler it can only reach saturation temperature, but by seperating it from the water and passing it back through the boiler, it becomes superheated. And thus it gives more bang for the buck.

Now there were attempts to redirect the steam back into the tender's water tank to recover both the water vapor and to preheat the water in the tank. But one of the problems is that the cylinders are constently lubricated (metal piston on metal cylinder walls without lubrication is a bad thing). So the exiting steam is full of oil particles and can gunk up stuff pretty bad.

So you fire for TVRM...nice! The 610's a gorgeous loco, that's for sure. Never actually fired a steamer myself, I'd love to do it though.

I also was one of the ones that read that tech post through. Makes perfect sense to me (Even though I already knew a good fireman won't make smoke )

Yes she is. And for a small engine, she's got a nice sharp bark when she's working hard.

[mlw_1550]

yes, but no extra steam is wasted, becuase it isn't needed.

It all goes into the pistons instead of out the chimney.

They really chuff on gradients though

Born, what comes out of the chimney is essencialy smoke, from the combustion of the coal, or lumber, or oil. And it should be black, not white, but that doesn't matter for the case... So it smokes all the time, though a LOT more when in great effort, of course.

[Singaporekid]

So it smokes all the time, though a LOT more when in great effort, of course.

Not really

[mlw_1550]

Well, I was thinking of black smoke, it's the first time I see such a great amount of white smoke. Nice pic.
But now, I've read captain kidd post, so I now understand why the big black plumes appear...
I have A LOT of pics of the two broad gauge museum steamers of CP, and almost all of them have big areas that are black...

[Captain Kidd]

In singaporekid's pic, that's steam not smoke. Looking at the scenery, I'd say that it's sometime in the fall. Conditions tend to be more ideal spring/autumn for the steam to condense and not disperse as quickly, relative humidity and dew points. I love slightly foggy mornings too. The steam pours out in thick white rolls and stays around for a long time. Sometimes too long, we've had to almost stop short of our tunnel a couple times because the air in it hasn't cleared and the rules require we visually confirm that the tunnel is clear. Last year I was on the locomotive when we had people hiding in the tunnel and we didn't see them until we were already in. That was a scary ride, but a story for another time.

So, not everything that comes out the stack is smoke. Quck back of the envelope calculation here. We run approximately 36 miles a day (6 trips of 6 miles round trip) with a slight uphill each way, but one’s more extreme than the other. It’s about 1 mile of 1% grade I think. Doesn’t sound like much but it is. So, one locomotive at 125 tons and pulling three heavyweight coaches at approximately 85 tons each; that comes to about 380 tons plus the weight of the coal and water which diminishes over the course of the day. During the 36 mile day, we tend to use about 3 to 4 tons of coal and 3,000 to 4,000 gallons of water. So let’s say 3.5 tons of coal and 3,500 gallons of water were used today. A gallon of water weighs in at 8.35 pounds, so we used 14.6 tons of water. So for every pound of coal byproduct that goes out the stack, 4.2 pounds of water vapor (steam) goes with it. Of course not all the coal burns, there’s ash and other non-volatiles mixed in there so the 4:1 water-gas ratio is even more in favor of water vapor.

As a matter of fact, I ran today and I paid extra attention to the stack just to make sure I had my ducks in a row. We rarely had anything more than a slight haze showing, and when we did, especially in the stations, a slight turn of the blower valve cleared it right up. The blower is a supplement to the steam discharge through the smokebox nozzle. It helps to draft more air through the firebox and keeps it at a slight vacuum so that it breaths right and gasses don't leak back into the cab.

Edited to add: Yet again another long-winded post, sorry, I don't mean to be.

Hey, DanMacK, how do you know us? Live nearby?

[Overlord1191]

So, how many eyes have glazed over now? Heck, how many read this entire post?

Very cool. Where are you located Captain Kidd? (hopefully in the USA) Can I come and ride the train you drive up front with you? God, I wish I could've seen the steamers back in the day. That is really awesome!

I live in the American Southeast and we're lucky to have a few of the old trains still running in tourist areas and up in the mountains. Every time we go vactation up there I try to get everyone on one of 'em!

[Captain Kidd]

So, how many eyes have glazed over now? Heck, how many read this entire post?

Very cool. Where are you located Captain Kidd? (hopefully in the USA) Can I come and ride the train you drive up front with you? God, I wish I could've seen the steamers back in the day. That is really awesome!

I live in the American Southeast and we're lucky to have a few of the old trains still running in tourist areas and up in the mountains. Every time we go vactation up there I try to get everyone on one of 'em!

Same area here, SE Tennessee and a member of the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum, webmaster too.

To be honest, I'm a few hours short of getting my full fireman's qualification. There's one function that I still haven't completed training on; firing up the locomotive. It involves 3 to 5 hours of sitting (...and sitting...and sitting) there slowly building up a fire and heating a boiler full of cold water up to operating temperature. You can't just start it up like a car. Heat the water up too fast and you thermal shock the boiler and bad things could happen. It's a simple procedure, the shop people are usually the ones to fire up the locomotive, but it's still a requirement for firemen to know. So I'm hoping to get a couple days off here in the next couple weeks for engine fire-up and then I'll be ready for my qualification test. There have been days I've fired almost the entire day. That quickly made me realized that as soon as I qualify, I'm not going to go all possessive of the engine and want to do it alone but be happy about getting a 'cub' on board to share the load.

It'll be a couple years before I can get my engineer trainee permit, much less my engineer's license, but you can come and ride when I fire. Hopefully I'll be qualified by then. Should have been by now but it is amazing how babies can nix your free time.

This discussion has been enlightening for me too. Helped me realized how in-depth my knowledge has become. Just a few years ago, this picture would have sent me running; now I find myself adjusting stuff without thinking.

[DanMacK]

Captain Kidd =>As a long-time railfan, I'm well aware of the TVRM and other steam excursion lines. Haven't had the opportunity to visit the TVRM yet, but I've been to Strasburg, Steamtown and a couple of static museums.

I don't live nearby (Wish I did... I'm in Ontario, Canada)

[zc15-nyonker]

Captain Kidd:
I can't say much after your speech on steam trains, but I will say this. People think diesels are such a big improvement on the steamer, but I disagree. There is no diesel out there that can haul 5 miles of train at 80 miles an hour like the Big Boy can. Except for some Japanese bullet trains, steam holds the rail speed record. I don't understand how American railroads could have ditched such a amazing machine altogether. I think mankind had not deigned a machine quite so efficient as the steam engine. Behind everyone's back, steam still drives our power plants and nuclear marine vehicles. That makes a statement.

[Elmo & Dorothy]

maintenance on a steam engine (plus the hours it took to lub, clean, water and coal them for each turn around, certain engines could take up to 6 hours) and parts fabrication made them not partical compared to Diesels. Don;t get me wrong I love steam, but if i ran a railroad i would of dieselized too.

[Badger]

zc15-nyonker - You dig up a topic from nearly 6 years ago to have a conversation with a member that hasn't been to the forums in 4 years?

Stop digging up old dead topics or have some warnings. Your choice.