OpenTTD and patch packs

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by acs121 » 25 Apr 2018 16:39

Eddi wrote:
acs121 wrote:And later on, a patcher did make code for diagonal crossings, that worked !
you must have really strange definitions of "worked". Because the original implementation of diagonal crossings (from like 10 years ago) had significant gameplay problems (like spurious pieces of crossings staying blocked while the train had already left).

and i myself once tried to solve that problem, which "worked" for my personal use, but was definitely not ready for the general public
By "worked" i mean that trains could pass on the diagonal crossings diagonally.

Next for InfraSharing. I've not noticed specific bugs though there sure is a somewhat bad implementation. Other than that, the only problem with IS are social problems that are also present in trunk with sharing canals, sharing roads etc. This is also a problem with road conversion in NRT.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by Eddi » 25 Apr 2018 17:31

acs121 wrote:By "worked" i mean that trains could pass on the diagonal crossings diagonally.
hm, sure, but that was never the issue that needed solving...
Other than that, the only problem with IS are social problems that are also present in trunk with sharing canals, sharing roads etc.
also, this is not really the reason which blocks IS from including. sure, it is a problem, but not one you can realistically expect someone to solve. there are much deeper core problems which need a solution before merging will come into significant reach. most notably the payment of partial routes. this has been known for ages, but nobody has worked on any solution as far as i am aware. and patchpacks generally just ignore the problem in a "well, works for me" fashion...
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by JGR » 25 Apr 2018 17:58

Eddi wrote:also, this is not really the reason which blocks IS from including. sure, it is a problem, but not one you can realistically expect someone to solve. there are much deeper core problems which need a solution before merging will come into significant reach. most notably the payment of partial routes. this has been known for ages, but nobody has worked on any solution as far as i am aware. and patchpacks generally just ignore the problem in a "well, works for me" fashion...
For what it's worth, I have a solution to the partial route payment issue in my patchpack.
The real money from final cargo acceptance is distributed to the applicable company/ies in the applicable vehicle type cost category/ies as per the virtual transfer payments previously made en route, rather than it all being distributed to the (company and vehicle type of the) final vehicle, or real money being generated for transfers (which is exploitable).
This requires additional book-keeping, but is not otherwise that difficult.

I also include an alternative algorithm for intermediary transfer payments, which is less prone to generating huge negative payments on the final leg. This isn't enabled by default though.
Last edited by JGR on 25 Apr 2018 18:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by wallyweb » 25 Apr 2018 18:20

JGR wrote:... even if the developers aren't being paid in fiat currency for it.
Another excellent reason for andythenorth to implement gold mines. 8)

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by andythenorth » 25 Apr 2018 18:26

wallyweb wrote:Another excellent reason for andythenorth to implement gold mines. 8)
Best I can do is http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/pus ... amond_mine

I suggested putting a hidden (crypto) coin miner into OpenTTD but Truebrain said no, it's not moral :twisted:

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by wallyweb » 25 Apr 2018 18:34

andythenorth wrote:
wallyweb wrote:Another excellent reason for andythenorth to implement gold mines. 8)
Best I can do is http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/pus ... amond_mine

I suggested putting a hidden (crypto) coin miner into OpenTTD but Truebrain said no, it's not moral :twisted:
Why was there a need to include a crypt?

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by MagicBuzz » 28 Jun 2018 13:05

I'm very amused to see this kind of discussion today.

Since 2003 I'm on this forum (less active the last few years though) I see a total gap between patch designers and official developpers.

There are fantastic patches that has been rewritten many times, abdonned, recoded, died.
Always the same song from the official devs : "well, I don't like this stuff and I'm working on Something else and I Don't want to maintain code that isn't from me".

Transport Tycoon is a very rich game. That's probably the only Reason why more that 20 years later there is stil l a community of players enjoying this game.

This richness is mostly the fact that you can play with or without opponents, alone on online, with or without newgrf, with or without opponements, with only pax or ony cargo, or both : you can do what ever you want to.

And for this reason I don't think the reason "I (don't) like this stuff" should be an acceptable reason to merge (or not) a patch in trunk.

Devs implemented timetables in the trunk "their way".
I hate the way they work (or not). They are useless with breakdowns enabled, useless when upgrading your vehicules with newer, etc.

A long time ago I wrtoe the first separation patch. It was not perfect, and has been rewritten since, but was handling the "automated timetable" feature well. The timetables were usabled, and provided a efficient way to separate trafic.
This was never included in the trunk.

The reason ? "the timetables aren't supposed to be used like that".
Ok… well, and what about a game setting or timetable setting to change the way the player wants to use it ?

Nah, player sucks. He isn't supposed to exist. Only dev are good. Game is by devs for devs.

Now, there is actually a separation feature based on timetables (so yes, timetable finally can be used for this) but the current implementation of timetables are still useless in major game context (only usable after 2035 is breakdown are disabled).

I'm speaking about an simple and obvious patch. Don't say about a more enthusiastic patch like IS.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by Eddi » 28 Jun 2018 17:23

MagicBuzz wrote:And for this reason I don't think the reason "I (don't) like this stuff" should be an acceptable reason to merge (or not) a patch in trunk.
at no point was that ever the reason for not including a patch.

(it might be in the other direction, if a dev likes a patch, it might get fast-tracked. but that patch still needs to fulfill half a dozen other requirements for inclusion)

I'm speaking about an simple and obvious patch.
people always think they have a simple answer for complicated problems. and when someone questions this simple approach, they cry "fake news"

yes, there are a hundred things wrong with the current timetables. but indiscriminate autoseparation doesn't solve 99 of them. and may make some of them even harder to solve. and THAT is the main reason why it was never included. a proper (non-simple) patch must address a larger share of the (related) problems
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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by acs121 » 28 Jun 2018 20:29

MagicBuzz wrote:I'm very amused to see this kind of discussion today.

Since 2003 I'm on this forum (less active the last few years though) I see a total gap between patch designers and official developpers.

There are fantastic patches that has been rewritten many times, abdonned, recoded, died.
Always the same song from the official devs : "well, I don't like this stuff and I'm working on Something else and I Don't want to maintain code that isn't from me".

Transport Tycoon is a very rich game. That's probably the only Reason why more that 20 years later there is stil l a community of players enjoying this game.

This richness is mostly the fact that you can play with or without opponents, alone on online, with or without newgrf, with or without opponements, with only pax or ony cargo, or both : you can do what ever you want to.

And for this reason I don't think the reason "I (don't) like this stuff" should be an acceptable reason to merge (or not) a patch in trunk.

Devs implemented timetables in the trunk "their way".
I hate the way they work (or not). They are useless with breakdowns enabled, useless when upgrading your vehicules with newer, etc.

A long time ago I wrtoe the first separation patch. It was not perfect, and has been rewritten since, but was handling the "automated timetable" feature well. The timetables were usabled, and provided a efficient way to separate trafic.
This was never included in the trunk.

The reason ? "the timetables aren't supposed to be used like that".
Ok… well, and what about a game setting or timetable setting to change the way the player wants to use it ?

Nah, player sucks. He isn't supposed to exist. Only dev are good. Game is by devs for devs.

Now, there is actually a separation feature based on timetables (so yes, timetable finally can be used for this) but the current implementation of timetables are still useless in major game context (only usable after 2035 is breakdown are disabled).

I'm speaking about an simple and obvious patch. Don't say about a more enthusiastic patch like IS.
There are patches, like yours, which is very good, that have as much enthusiasm for inclusion as IS. It can be an obvious and simple, or non-obvious and difficult patch (such as IS), but both can get as much enthusiasm.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by SimYouLater » 29 Jun 2018 02:28

acs121 wrote:
MagicBuzz wrote:I'm very amused to see this kind of discussion today.

Since 2003 I'm on this forum (less active the last few years though) I see a total gap between patch designers and official developpers.

There are fantastic patches that has been rewritten many times, abdonned, recoded, died.
Always the same song from the official devs : "well, I don't like this stuff and I'm working on Something else and I Don't want to maintain code that isn't from me".

Transport Tycoon is a very rich game. That's probably the only Reason why more that 20 years later there is stil l a community of players enjoying this game.

This richness is mostly the fact that you can play with or without opponents, alone on online, with or without newgrf, with or without opponements, with only pax or ony cargo, or both : you can do what ever you want to.

And for this reason I don't think the reason "I (don't) like this stuff" should be an acceptable reason to merge (or not) a patch in trunk.

Devs implemented timetables in the trunk "their way".
I hate the way they work (or not). They are useless with breakdowns enabled, useless when upgrading your vehicules with newer, etc.

A long time ago I wrtoe the first separation patch. It was not perfect, and has been rewritten since, but was handling the "automated timetable" feature well. The timetables were usabled, and provided a efficient way to separate trafic.
This was never included in the trunk.

The reason ? "the timetables aren't supposed to be used like that".
Ok… well, and what about a game setting or timetable setting to change the way the player wants to use it ?

Nah, player sucks. He isn't supposed to exist. Only dev are good. Game is by devs for devs.

Now, there is actually a separation feature based on timetables (so yes, timetable finally can be used for this) but the current implementation of timetables are still useless in major game context (only usable after 2035 is breakdown are disabled).

I'm speaking about an simple and obvious patch. Don't say about a more enthusiastic patch like IS.
There are patches, like yours, which is very good, that have as much enthusiasm for inclusion as IS. It can be an obvious and simple, or non-obvious and difficult patch (such as IS), but both can get as much enthusiasm.
Not enthusiasm. I'm pretty sure he means ambition. Ambitious patches = more complex and/or more broad scope
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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by acs121 » 29 Jun 2018 08:43

By "enthusiasm" i mean that there can be as much people saying "we need this in trunk" in IS than in another patch.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by MagicBuzz » 29 Jun 2018 19:17

SimYouLater > You're right ;) I mean by "enthusiast". Sorry for my low level of English :D

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by SimYouLater » 29 Jun 2018 19:30

MagicBuzz wrote:SimYouLater > You're right ;) I mean by "enthusiast". Sorry for my low level of English :D
No problem. Just try your best!
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You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by agentw4b » 30 Jun 2018 07:43

I still do not understand why all patches can not be placed in Settings or CTRL + ALT + C Cheat mode in a regular game. It would be much easier than developing several different versions of the game at once. Who needs the patch, he just turns it on.

For example, the patch type: Copy / paste or Logic signal could be in Cheat Mode, which can not be run in Multiplayer.

Additionally, you can add import and export options for the location of cities and industry from text files to the map / scenario game editor.
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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by acs121 » 30 Jun 2018 22:04

agentw4b wrote:I still do not understand why all patches can not be placed in Settings or CTRL + ALT + C Cheat mode in a regular game. It would be much easier than developing several different versions of the game at once. Who needs the patch, he just turns it on.

For example, the patch type: Copy / paste or Logic signal could be in Cheat Mode, which can not be run in Multiplayer.

Additionally, you can add import and export options for the location of cities and industry from text files to the map / scenario game editor.
Well sadly patches cannot be added like NewGRFs. If you could install multiple patches at once when not in a patchpack, they would succesively overwrite the code and maybe cause some huge errors sometimes.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by wallyweb » 02 Jul 2018 05:12

agentw4b wrote:I still do not understand why all patches can not be placed in Settings or CTRL + ALT + C Cheat mode in a regular game. It would be much easier than developing several different versions of the game at once. Who needs the patch, he just turns it on.
The problem is that patches do not "use" existing source code. They "modify" existing source code. Every time that source code is added, removed or altered, the program must be recompiled. So, as desirable as some form of plug-and-play patch testing would be, it is impossible.
Additionally, you can add import and export options for the location of cities and industry from text files to the map / scenario game editor.
Now, this is probably a more reasonable suggestion. It sounds like a form of game scripting. Of course the concept would have to be developed via patches to the source code that governs the functions of the scenario editor, but once done it might be a useful tool.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by ino » 02 Jul 2018 07:00

wallyweb wrote:
Additionally, you can add import and export options for the location of cities and industry from text files to the map / scenario game editor.
Now, this is probably a more reasonable suggestion. It sounds like a form of game scripting. Of course the concept would have to be developed via patches to the source code that governs the functions of the scenario editor, but once done it might be a useful tool.
Reproducible scenario generation has been in talk for ages though.

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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by McZapkie » 02 Jul 2018 10:33

ino wrote:
wallyweb wrote:
Additionally, you can add import and export options for the location of cities and industry from text files to the map / scenario game editor.
Now, this is probably a more reasonable suggestion. It sounds like a form of game scripting. Of course the concept would have to be developed via patches to the source code that governs the functions of the scenario editor, but once done it might be a useful tool.
Reproducible scenario generation has been in talk for ages though.
And appropriate patch already exists, see signature.
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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by agentw4b » 02 Jul 2018 14:52

And appropriate patch already exists, see signature.

Yes, I know about this import of cities, but the use of GIS tools is very complicated. Why can not it be a regular editor in a regular game? But ok i know ... It can not be done. :-)
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Re: OpenTTD and patch packs

Post by elvismurk » 24 Oct 2019 08:34

agentw4b wrote:
02 Jul 2018 14:52
And appropriate patch already exists, see signature.

Yes, I know about this import of cities, but the use of GIS tools is very complicated. Why can not it be a regular editor in a regular game? But ok i know ... It can not be done. :-)
I don't have any experience in OpenTTD developing or much development at all, but I do know that this isn't how things work. It's on par with asking something like 'Why can't Google Chrome use Mozilla Firefox extensions? Yes, I know separate versions of the extensions exist for Chrome, but why can't it just be the same exact extension?' and, going even further, 'Why does it even need to be an extension? Why can't Chrome just have a button for it in the first place?'.

I could be very mistaken, but having read most of the thread, a pronounced misunderstanding of how software works seems to be being demonstrated in these lines of questioning.
agentw4b wrote:
02 Jul 2018 14:52
But ok i know ... It can not be done. :-)
That's correct. It can't be done, literally, it's a computer software version of physically impossible.

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