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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:35 am 
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wallyweb wrote:
As suggested here :?:

Yes, I totally support your suggestion :)

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:31 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
Let me try this another way. Why would you ever want to downgrade compatibility?


For example : i have trolleybuses runnig on street A, and i want my trolleybuses to go by a stop B instead of going directly from A to C.
They will no longer go by Street A, but rather on Street B, so i need to remove the catenary on Street A.
Another one : for running cost / road maintenance cost reasons i want to replace my trolleybuses by standard diesel ones and my roads by standard roads.

If you ask a mayor "Hey, i don't want trolleybuses anymore, please remove the catenary but leave the tarmac on" he will say yes. It's realism too. I am talking about converting an electrified road to a standard road. Converting a road to a slower one, would sure be stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:32 am 
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I agree with a more detailed error message in case of downgrading town roads.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
I agree with a more detailed error message in case of downgrading town roads.
:bow:

But, considering acs121's latest example above, is removing catenary really a downgrade?
Answering my own question, it might be if the AI or, in a server game, a competing company still relies upon that route needing the catenary.
The only exception would be a single player game (no server) with no AI.
So, is it possible to allow "downgrades" only for single player games? Or would this be a nightmare to code?
An added note ... Currently in trunk, I am able to remove tram tracks and catenary from roads simply by using the "toggle build/remove" tool in the tramways menu. Is this function lost in NRT?

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:37 pm 
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wallyweb wrote:
An added note ... Currently in trunk, I am able to remove tram tracks and catenary from roads simply by using the "toggle build/remove" tool in the tramways menu. Is this function lost in NRT?

There isn't really any concept of adding or removing catenary from roads with NRT :)

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:42 pm 
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To me it doesn't really change my life to allow "downgrading" town roads, ok, if I'll get bored about a trolleybus line and want to remove it I can't, and that might be a problem, but we could address that.
The main purpose of this was to not make towns unable to be crossed with normal vehicles because somebody converts all the roads to HAUL or another non-ROAD type for example. These are types you should always build on empty tiles and won't be converted to/from anything else.

Speaking with others in chat we could get an agreement on dropping the check on electrification, so you can convert it back to normal road, and I'm fine with that too, but don't cry if somebody on MP disrupt your trolleybus network.
I know people should learn to play without sabotaging competitors' networks, but that's utopic and might work only if you play with friends, and we can't address players bad behaviours in any other way than disallowing doing certain actions by design instead of talking with them.

We are open to suggestions if all the aspects are considered, not just "but I want it the other way", currently it's done like this because we couldn't get an agreement on the "griefing" part so we disallowed downgrading of town roads at all, maybe we are too much worried about it, as some players pointed out the episodes of griefing seem to be very rare, but if we all together could find an agreement then we'll settle it and it will be how the feature will work in the definitive version.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:44 pm 
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wallyweb wrote:
An added note ... Currently in trunk, I am able to remove tram tracks and catenary from roads simply by using the "toggle build/remove" tool in the tramways menu. Is this function lost in NRT?

You can still do it on NRT, but you remove the tram catenary, not the road catenary, as you can have 2 catenaries on the same tile :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
To me it doesn't really change my life to allow "downgrading" town roads, ok, if I'll get bored about a trolleybus line and want to remove it I can't, and that might be a problem, but we could address that.
The main purpose of this was to not make towns unable to be crossed with normal vehicles because somebody converts all the roads to HAUL or another non-ROAD type for example. These are types you should always build on empty tiles and won't be converted to/from anything else.

Speaking with others in chat we could get an agreement on dropping the check on electrification, so you can convert it back to normal road, and I'm fine with that too, but don't cry if somebody on MP disrupt your trolleybus network.
I know people should learn to play without sabotaging competitors' networks, but that's utopic and might work only if you play with friends, and we can't address players bad behaviours in any other way than disallowing doing certain actions by design instead of talking with them.

We are open to suggestions if all the aspects are considered, not just "but I want it the other way", currently it's done like this because we couldn't get an agreement on the "griefing" part so we disallowed downgrading of town roads at all, maybe we are too much worried about it, as some players pointed out the episodes of griefing seem to be very rare, but if we all together could find an agreement then we'll settle it and it will be how the feature will work in the definitive version.


I did play on servers whithout any of my friends, mainly on JGRpp servers with Infrastructure Sharing enabled, and never got griefed with someone diselectrifying sections on which my trains ran, track removal, station removal etc. I am not talking about converting HAUL to ROAD, but ELRD to ROAD for example. I am only talking about diselectrifying your own roads.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:22 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
I did play on servers whithout any of my friends, mainly on JGRpp servers with Infrastructure Sharing enabled, and never got griefed with someone diselectrifying sections on which my trains ran, track removal, station removal etc. I am not talking about converting HAUL to ROAD, but ELRD to ROAD for example. I am only talking about diselectrifying your own roads.

You are mixing 2 different things here:
1. you can't change other players rail stuff, there is no griefing possibility there, so wrong example
2. you can do whatever you want with your stuff, but town roads aren't yours, towns only let you "upgrade" the road

And yes, I was talking about allowing to un-electrify town roads, because I find the current limitation a bit restrictive too.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
I did play on servers whithout any of my friends, mainly on JGRpp servers with Infrastructure Sharing enabled, and never got griefed

I jumped 10 meter over a 5km deep canyon with waterfalls in it, and I didn't get hurt. I think it is safe for everybody to try that.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
acs121 wrote:
I did play on servers whithout any of my friends, mainly on JGRpp servers with Infrastructure Sharing enabled, and never got griefed with someone diselectrifying sections on which my trains ran, track removal, station removal etc. I am not talking about converting HAUL to ROAD, but ELRD to ROAD for example. I am only talking about diselectrifying your own roads.

You are mixing 2 different things here:
1. you can't change other players rail stuff, there is no griefing possibility there, so wrong example
2. you can do whatever you want with your stuff, but town roads aren't yours, towns only let you "upgrade" the road

And yes, I was talking about allowing to un-electrify town roads, because I find the current limitation a bit restrictive too.


No, by that i meant that people did allow me to take their rail lines (they were electrified) and they NEVER dis-electrified it.
When i was talking about converting ELRD to ROAD, i am talking about converting our own roads, and not town roads previously converted to ELRD.
I can only admit one thing, as town roads are owned by towns, since anyone is able to convert town-owned roads, it can, effectively cause grief problems.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:46 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
When i was talking about converting ELRD to ROAD, i am talking about converting our own roads, and not town roads previously converted to ELRD.

You can already do that

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
wallyweb wrote:
An added note ... Currently in trunk, I am able to remove tram tracks and catenary from roads simply by using the "toggle build/remove" tool in the tramways menu. Is this function lost in NRT?

You can still do it on NRT, but you remove the tram catenary, not the road catenary, as you can have 2 catenaries on the same tile :roll:
:mrgreen:

I see two options here:
1. Stay the course with an improved error message.
2. (WARNING - Includes philosophical thoughts)
- How do competing players currently deal with tram track&catenary removal?
- Why should trolley catenary removal be different?
- If a competing player accesses either or both of my catenary systems, does that player contribute anything to my build/maintenance costs?
- The competing player accesses my catenary system at his/her own risk. No?
- My removal/relocation of my infrastructure is done for the efficiency of my network, not that of the competing player. No?
- I should be able to build restricted infrastructure (e.g. andythenorth/HAUL). No?
- A solution? Road ownership is the key. It is company or town owned. The owner inherently sets and grants traveling privileges but not modification privileges, with the exception being trolley and/or tram service added to a town owned road. That town then still owns the road, but the trolley and/or tram service belongs to the building company who assumes exclusive trolley/tram modification privileges. A player can't add trolley or tram infrastructure to another player's owned road.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:18 pm 
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There is no catenary. It's just some arbitrary sprites. There is no catenary addition/removal.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:40 pm 
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IMHO NRT should change the game the less possible, we should consider what you can do with the base game now and what you can do with NRT now.
I'll reply inline
wallyweb wrote:
I see two options here:
1. Stay the course with an improved error message. totally agree
2. (WARNING - Includes philosophical thoughts)
- How do competing players currently deal with tram track&catenary removal? how do current base game players deal with "player 1 removes a road used by player 2 too"?
- Why should trolley catenary removal be different? it isn't, trolley catenary is a road type and has nothing to do with tram, they are completely indipendent, this is why we decided at some point to draw both catenaries (leaving the burden to the grf authors to make them look nice) because players couldn't tell if there was catenary for tram or for road in one tile (ROAD+ELRL or ELRD+RAIL)
- If a competing player accesses either or both of my catenary systems, does that player contribute anything to my build/maintenance costs? nope, NRT doesn't change the way these things work, only extend it where they didn't exist before
- The competing player accesses my catenary system at his/her own risk. No? yes, same as first point
- My removal/relocation of my infrastructure is done for the efficiency of my network, not that of the competing player. No? agreed
- I should be able to build restricted infrastructure (e.g. andythenorth/HAUL). No? uhm, what do you mean? You MUST be able to build restricted infrastructure
- A solution? Road ownership is the key. It is company or town owned. The owner inherently sets and grants traveling privileges but not modification privileges, with the exception being trolley and/or tram service added to a town owned road. That town then still owns the road, but the trolley and/or tram service belongs to the building company who assumes exclusive trolley/tram modification privileges. A player can't add trolley or tram infrastructure to another player's owned road.

The last one is the real question: a solution?
We should need an owner stored somewhere which tells who made a modification so the only one which can change it is who did it.
We should allow free conversion of town roads, with all the risks and abuses it might bring on?
We should limit it in some ways? (currently is like this, maybe too much restrictive)
What could happen when towns will be able to use their own preferred roadtype instead of always base road? (and I already have a patch for this)
Should we change also how one way roads is handled? (currently you must own a road to make it oneway, so the ability to convert town roads without rebuilding them is even less restrictive than oneway roads)

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:39 pm 
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andythenorth wrote:
There is no catenary. It's just some arbitrary sprites. There is no catenary addition/removal.
Sorry andy. I should have been more explicit. My references to catenaries are merely because they are readily distinguished for each type.

Wolf01 wrote:
IMHO NRT should change the game the less possible, we should consider what you can do with the base game now and what you can do with NRT now.
Agreed.

Quote:
wallyweb wrote:
I see two options here:
2. (WARNING - Includes philosophical thoughts)
- How do competing players currently deal with tram track&catenary removal? how do current base game players deal with "player 1 removes a road used by player 2 too"? Can player 1 do that?

- Why should trolley catenary removal be different? it isn't, trolley catenary is a road type and has nothing to do with tram, they are completely indipendent, this is why we decided at some point to draw both catenaries (leaving the burden to the grf authors to make them look nice) because players couldn't tell if there was catenary for tram or for road in one tile (ROAD+ELRL or ELRD+RAIL) See my note to andy above. :wink:

- If a competing player accesses either or both of my catenary systems, does that player contribute anything to my build/maintenance costs? nope, NRT doesn't change the way these things work, only extend it where they didn't exist before Ok ... I'll assume (probably wrongly) that the other player is getting a free ride at my expense.

- I should be able to build restricted infrastructure (e.g. andythenorth/HAUL). No? uhm, what do you mean? You MUST be able to build restricted infrastructure Sorry. Yes, MUST is implied.

- A solution? Road ownership is the key. It is company or town owned. The owner inherently sets and grants traveling privileges but not modification privileges, with the exception being trolley and/or tram service added to a town owned road. That town then still owns the road, but the trolley and/or tram service belongs to the building company who assumes exclusive trolley/tram modification privileges. A player can't add trolley or tram infrastructure to another player's owned road.

The last one is the real question: a solution?
We should need an owner stored somewhere which tells who made a modification so the only one which can change it is who did it.
We should allow free conversion of town roads, with all the risks and abuses it might bring on?
We should limit it in some ways? (currently is like this, maybe too much restrictive) [Keep your plant tree tool handy. It's one of the challenges of the game. :D ]
What could happen when towns will be able to use their own preferred roadtype instead of always base road? (and I already have a patch for this) [What? Towns upgrading their own roads? SMARTTowns with G-5 support? :shock: ]

Should we change also how one way roads is handled? (currently you must own a road to make it oneway, so the ability to convert town roads without rebuilding them is even less restrictive than oneway roads)[Convert vs. rebuild sounds good. Many players rebuild as a matter of course. Perhaps with a town rating caveat.]

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:02 pm 
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I'll clean it up a bit because it starts to get a mess
wallyweb wrote:
- How do competing players currently deal with tram track&catenary removal? how do current base game players deal with "player 1 removes a road used by player 2 too"? Can player 1 do that? yes, player 2 can build roadstops on player 1 roads, and if player 1 want to remove the road, all that remain are the roadstops of player 2 (you can't remove the road there until player 2 removes the stations)


- If a competing player accesses either or both of my catenary systems, does that player contribute anything to my build/maintenance costs? nope, NRT doesn't change the way these things work, only extend it where they didn't exist before Ok ... I'll assume (probably wrongly) that the other player is getting a free ride at my expense.
you are right, you pay to build the road, you pay for the maintenance, all the other companies can use the road for free, it has always been so


We should limit it in some ways? (currently is like this, maybe too much restrictive) [Keep your plant tree tool handy. It's one of the challenges of the game. :D ] maybe you are right and you solved the entire problem, allow downgrade if the local authority is happy with you
What could happen when towns will be able to use their own preferred roadtype instead of always base road? (and I already have a patch for this) [What? Towns upgrading their own roads? SMARTTowns with G-5 support? :shock: ] exactly, but this is a 2nd stage feature

Should we change also how one way roads is handled? (currently you must own a road to make it oneway, so the ability to convert town roads without rebuilding them is even less restrictive than oneway roads)[Convert vs. rebuild sounds good. Many players rebuild as a matter of course. Perhaps with a town rating caveat.][/quote] this is a good suggestion and I like it, we'll talk about it

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
wallyweb wrote:
- How do competing players currently deal with tram track&catenary removal? how do current base game players deal with "player 1 removes a road used by player 2 too"? Can player 1 do that? yes, player 2 can build roadstops on player 1 roads, and if player 1 want to remove the road, all that remain are the roadstops of player 2 (you can't remove the road there until player 2 removes the stations)
Caveat Emptor! Player 2 should have known the risks before trespassing on player 1's property. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:18 pm 
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Is it possible to set special roadtypes only for compatibility reasons?

Why I'm asking? Beside others I have a type of vehicles that are amphibious buses, which can run on (road type) canals (WWAY), as well as any other road (ROAD). So I set the vehicle's type to AMPH (and not WWAY which could be used for gondolas). However, without setting a road type AMPH I'm not able to let vehicles of this type be build and run on any roads (or road type canals). But, if I define the (empty) road type AMPH, I'm of course left with a road entry in the road building drop-down menu, which builds ROAD and takes up precious space.

At the moment I'm steering around the problem by hijacking supermops unspooled road types (which afaik aren't intended to be bound to certain types of vehicles) :lol:

Maybe it's just me inventing all sorts of exotic vehicle types and road type compatibility combinations which in the end just confuses the player anyway ... :roll:

But I think compatibility for road types has to work a little bit different from compatibility for rail types: While a train can hardly run on tracks with different gauges, so a normal-gauge train needs to be refitted to a broad-gauge train etc., except the tracks are dual-gauge, a car on the other hand can run on any road it is being designed for. In other words: not the road decides which cars can run on it, but the car decides which road it can run on.

So ... a solution would probably be to let road vehicles be of more than one type.
Or ... have special (or empty) road types meant to set compatibilities. (might be the easiest solution?)
Or ... let vehicles (of road type B) run on a road type A when this road type A has a compatibility for vehicles of the road type B. Right now, it is the other way round...

Or am I the one thinking wrongly? ?(

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Kruemelchen wrote:
But I think compatibility for road types has to work a little bit different from compatibility for rail types: While a train can hardly run on tracks with different gauges, so a normal-gauge train needs to be refitted to a broad-gauge train etc., except the tracks are dual-gauge, a car on the other hand can run on any road it is being designed for. In other words: not the road decides which cars can run on it, but the car decides which road it can run on.

So ... a solution would probably be to let road vehicles be of more than one type.
Or ... have special (or empty) road types meant to set compatibilities. (might be the easiest solution?)
Or ... let vehicles (of road type B) run on a road type A when this road type A has a compatibility for vehicles of the road type B. Right now, it is the other way round...

Or am I the one thinking wrongly? ?(


Cars are designed for roads, it makes sense that the vehicles define the compatible road types. Unfortunately, that would mean modifying existing RV sets to work with NRT.

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