Transport Tycoon Forums

The place to talk about Transport Tycoon
It is currently Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:23 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 469 posts ]  Go to page Previous 111 12 13 14 1524 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:55 am 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:43 am
Posts: 2003
Location: Venezia - Italia
Bringing back the topic on the right rails, I already made a patch to allow drawing both catenaries, it needs some polishing but if it gets green light we'll merge it on NRT, so grf authors will be free to draw the catenaries so they could be distinguished between road and tram or both.
If this helps to identify the correct compatibility of vehicles on roads visually, then we'll be a step further to a stable NRT

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage
ImageImage
newgrf tests, see: newgrf test topic, my patches: Wolf01's Hire Point
Italian TTD Forum
Wiki Page


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 4676
Location: Lost in Music
Screenshots would tell the story better, but from tests:

  • use different positions for road / tram catenary poles so both are visible
  • use different colours for the poles (unspooled has brown poles and grey poles that are quite distinct)
  • don't rely on being able to see the wires, they're barely visible, especially over tram tracks

If these guidelines are followed, it's now much easier for player to tell whether a tram has catenary for road / tram / both (compared to previous NRT where only one catenary is drawn). :)

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:23 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:15 am
Posts: 1023
Location: Fitzroy North - 96
andythenorth wrote:
use different colours for the poles (unspooled has brown poles and grey poles that are quite distinct)


Can I request/suggest that pole and wire sprites may use CC or even 2CC? This could be very helpful.

_________________
Image
Trolleybi! Trucks and Buses -- Docklands -- Unspooled -- MLSS


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:50 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:57 pm
Posts: 1059
Location: Courbevoie, near Paris, France
Unspooled, though, is a great GRF. It helps against the issue of coaches zipping through city centers (damn grids...) at 185 kph (i use the 2cc Bus Set) by making the city-built roads limited. Disabling construction of roads by towns though, you can remove all town-built roads and replace them by normal roads.

And i'm just in love with those light rail tracks. Would there be a possibility of placing tram rails on the center of tile like tracks, while making them unsignaled like real-life light trains (O-Train...) ? And if this could be possible, have then train-tram vehicles that can go both on tram tracks and rails ? I know that's dreaming, it's out of scope, it's one of the hardest things to do in this game, but give me right to dream, OK ?!

_________________
NewGRFs by Tony Pixel :
North American Passenger Railroads
Not Enough Subways


My screenshots


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:51 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:10 pm
Posts: 1074
supermop wrote:
Can I request/suggest that pole and wire sprites may use CC or even 2CC? This could be very helpful.

Good idea, BTW, such feature (CC for traction poles) should be accessible also in trunk, for railroads.
Having poles with CC strips or insulators is much better than these strange ugly fences :)

_________________
My experimental openTTD server: 149.156.194.203:3979 non-standard client, now testing: JGRPP http://tiny.pl/ggnch
Projects: Reproducible Map Generation patch, NewGRFs: Manpower industries, PolTrams, Polroad, 600mm narrow gauge, preindustrial houses, wired, ECS industry extension.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:23 am 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 4676
Location: Lost in Music
Latest NRT binary is available from the compile farm

>> https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt

-- Changes --

Town-owned roads can now be converted to other types, both by player and in scenario editor

Above all, this makes it possible to build trolley bus roads in town.

- the type being converted to must be compatible with ROAD
- e.g. town roads can't be converted to HAUL in Road Hog
- there is nothing to prevent other players (or AI) late converting these roads to other types
- this is wide open for deliberate or accidental griefing, there is no clean solution to that; it won't be solved in code, this type of griefing is a social problem not a technical problem
- can also now convert OWNER_NONE tunnels and bridges (e.g. from bankrupt companies)

-- Other recent changes --

Separate catenary sprites drawn for road and tram

This makes it possible for newgrf authors to draw catenary so that it is easy for players to tell if road / tram / both catenaries are present on a tile. This avoids confusion about whether vehicles have a valid (powered) route on the tile.

Company colour used for catenary sprites

This makes it easier for newgrf authors to draw catenary so that the player can distinguish the owner company of the catenary.

Only the first company colour is supported for this, similar to railway fences, stations and other cases.

Up to date with trunk OpenTTD

NRT is kept in sync with the trunk branch in the OpenTTD repository. This avoids NRT getting blocked by unexpected conflicts with trunk. Although there's no glamour in the results, work is still done behind the scenes to do this and resolve conflicts. ;)

-- GRFs --

To make use of these changes, try Supermop's Unspooled GRF

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75986&start=40

And a final note, thanks are owed to all the authors making test grfs for NRT, without them it would be very unlikely to keep moving forward. :)

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:45 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:47 pm
Posts: 106
Great to see this already implemented :D
This feels like a great progress :)

Already tested this with my country roads grf, and found a "bug" in the way roads are converted.
It's very convenient, that the city roads can easily be converted. But while I couldn't convert ROAD to HAUL directly, I could do so by converting ROAD first to another road type (my ROAD-supporting sand road), I was then able to convert this road to a HAUL-supporting (but not ROAD-supporting) road type, and then to HAUL.

This could be a feature, still :P

I think this is possible, because my HAUL-supporting road type (muddy road) also supports RVs, which can run on the ROAD-supporting road type (sand road). I could easily change the newgrf to adjust it. So not really a problem NRT is responsible for. Even though, pretty fun sending HAUL vehicles happily through the city center :mrgreen:

But, on a side note, I was also able to convert bridges which are owned by cities directly to HAUL. This shouldn't be possible I guess.


Attachments:
File comment: HAUL in the city after converting first to custom road types
Narhill Transport, 30. Jun 1930.png
Narhill Transport, 30. Jun 1930.png [ 83.76 KiB | Viewed 684 times ]

_________________
GRFs for NotRoadTypes: Country Roads | Supplemental Unsurfaced Road Vehicle Set
Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:50 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:57 pm
Posts: 1059
Location: Courbevoie, near Paris, France
After reflection, do you think it'd be possible to recode the HEQS entirely for Heavy-haul road ? It'd make more sense, than having unitised mining trucks zipping at 90 kph through the city center.

_________________
NewGRFs by Tony Pixel :
North American Passenger Railroads
Not Enough Subways


My screenshots


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:51 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:15 am
Posts: 1023
Location: Fitzroy North - 96
andythenorth wrote:
Latest NRT binary is available from the compile farm

>> https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt

-- Changes --

Town-owned roads can now be converted to other types, both by player and in scenario editor

Above all, this makes it possible to build trolley bus roads in town.

- the type being converted to must be compatible with ROAD
- e.g. town roads can't be converted to HAUL in Road Hog
- there is nothing to prevent other players (or AI) late converting these roads to other types
- this is wide open for deliberate or accidental griefing, there is no clean solution to that; it won't be solved in code, this type of griefing is a social problem not a technical problem
- can also now convert OWNER_NONE tunnels and bridges (e.g. from bankrupt companies)

-- Other recent changes --

Separate catenary sprites drawn for road and tram

This makes it possible for newgrf authors to draw catenary so that it is easy for players to tell if road / tram / both catenaries are present on a tile. This avoids confusion about whether vehicles have a valid (powered) route on the tile.

Company colour used for catenary sprites

This makes it easier for newgrf authors to draw catenary so that the player can distinguish the owner company of the catenary.

Only the first company colour is supported for this, similar to railway fences, stations and other cases.

Up to date with trunk OpenTTD

NRT is kept in sync with the trunk branch in the OpenTTD repository. This avoids NRT getting blocked by unexpected conflicts with trunk. Although there's no glamour in the results, work is still done behind the scenes to do this and resolve conflicts. ;)

-- GRFs --

To make use of these changes, try Supermop's Unspooled GRF

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75986&start=40

And a final note, thanks are owed to all the authors making test grfs for NRT, without them it would be very unlikely to keep moving forward. :)



Thanks to Andy and Wolf01 for many hours of work, planning, and discussion to make this happen!

acs121 wrote:
After reflection, do you think it'd be possible to recode the HEQS entirely for Heavy-haul road ? It'd make more sense, than having unitised mining trucks zipping at 90 kph through the city center.


It's certainly possible, and I considered doing so myself as HEQs is GPL. However, I decided I had no interest in working in NFO anymore, and if I was going to rewrite the grf from scratch in NML, I could more easily just make my own RV grf - which is what I did.

_________________
Image
Trolleybi! Trucks and Buses -- Docklands -- Unspooled -- MLSS


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:44 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 4676
Location: Lost in Music
acs121 wrote:
After reflection, do you think it'd be possible to recode the HEQS entirely for Heavy-haul road ? It'd make more sense, than having unitised mining trucks zipping at 90 kph through the city center.

It's possible. But HEQS is dead, so unless someone else takes over maintaining, it won't happen. ;)

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:08 pm 
Offline
Director
Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:52 pm
Posts: 587
Location: London (South West)
Well it is released under GPL V2/v3... Who says it couldn't be recoded by someone entirely separate. Who knows NFO. But modifying existing vehicle sets for this doesn't sound like a bad idea: it'll give people more choice when playing with what is quite a special patch.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:15 am
Posts: 1023
Location: Fitzroy North - 96
Gwyd wrote:
Well it is released under GPL V2/v3... Who says it couldn't be recoded by someone entirely separate. Who knows NFO. But modifying existing vehicle sets for this doesn't sound like a bad idea: it'll give people more choice when playing with what is quite a special patch.



It would be fairly easy to recode, if someone wanted to. I considered it, and ultimately determined that the 'someone' would not be me, as I could instead use that time to build out my Trolleybi set into a full RV set to my own tastes.

HEQs has a lot of great sprites already drawn, but would need a few more cargo graphics drawn to support cargos that have been added since it was released. Presumably if adapting it for NRT, you'd also want to draw new trolley-assist mining trucks, and non-electric trams. None of that graphic part is hard, just needs someone who wants to do it.

_________________
Image
Trolleybi! Trucks and Buses -- Docklands -- Unspooled -- MLSS


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:02 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:57 pm
Posts: 1059
Location: Courbevoie, near Paris, France
I only know NML. I've heard NFO is way more complicated because it is hexadecimal. But if andythenorth is okay to give all the sprites, and that i'm not alone, i may redo the HEQS adapted for RATT one day, maybe in years ;)

_________________
NewGRFs by Tony Pixel :
North American Passenger Railroads
Not Enough Subways


My screenshots


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:13 pm 
Offline
Director
Director
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:52 pm
Posts: 587
Location: London (South West)
The sprites are openly available on the repository at http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:26 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 4676
Location: Lost in Music
Probably better discussed in HEQS thread tbh ;)

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=37912

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:42 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:05 pm
Posts: 5243
Location: Canada
A question for Wolf01 and andythenorth ... A lot of talk about vehicle sets having to be coded for ROAD and or HAUL ... This sounds a bit arbitrary. Surely NRT will be a bit more flexible and not require vehicle set recoding, will it not? And ROAD and HAUL are just figments of a road type set GRF built on the NRT feature, Are they not? Why do I ask? In reality all roads are navigable by all road vehicles, just that some RVs are more adept than others for a particular road type or condition. A Ferrari can still go down a gravel road, albeit not at it's full potential and farm tractors are famous for the traffic jamming of Interstates, motorways and autobahns.

_________________
wallyweb on tt-forums: Screenshots - Projects - Releases
wallyweb on Simuscape: Projects - Releases
Other Stuff: TTDPatch 2.6 "Nightly" download - cirdan's OpenTTD branch (New Map Features)
Screenshot Of The Month Contest Winner: August 2015 - Tied May 2016 - January 2018


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:38 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:15 am
Posts: 1023
Location: Fitzroy North - 96
wallyweb wrote:
A question for Wolf01 and andythenorth ... A lot of talk about vehicle sets having to be coded for ROAD and or HAUL ... This sounds a bit arbitrary. Surely NRT will be a bit more flexible and not require vehicle set recoding, will it not? And ROAD and HAUL are just figments of a road type set GRF built on the NRT feature, Are they not? Why do I ask? In reality all roads are navigable by all road vehicles, just that some RVs are more adept than others for a particular road type or condition. A Ferrari can still go down a gravel road, albeit not at it's full potential and farm tractors are famous for the traffic jamming of Interstates, motorways and autobahns.


HAUL is a roadtype that Andy has created for his NRT fork of Road Hog, primarily as a proof of concept for incompatible roadtypes (arguably one of the sought features in NRT). The thinking behind HAUL was that it represents special private roads that large mining or similar vehicles would use, and that these vehicles would not necessarily be legal to drive on public streets. While physically, yes, your giant tonka truck could trundle down mainstreet, and your Testarossa could drive to the bottom of a huge open pit mine, HAUL creates a separation as a gameplay mechanic - Private exlusing roads let you run bigger trucks vs smaller street legal trucks let you use public roads through towns and cities.

Currently a couple authors have produced grfs that define HAUL or a compatible type as a roadtype, but I believe only Road Hog provides HAUL vehicles. It is possible for a roadtype grf to define HAUL or a compatible type to allow regular ROAD vehicles as well, or vis versa, if the author wishes. As Kruemelchen mentioned, it's also possible (and has been done) to have HAUL and ROAD themselves be incompatible, but a third type to allow a combination.

The talk about recoding HEQs is primarily about forbidding the giant mining trucks from running on ROAD, which is now possible. HEQs will run as is in NRT without issue, just on regular ROAD compatible types. There are other more esoteric cases imagined for incompatible types as well, like pedestrian malls that allow no vehicles, or chairlifts/bucket lines etc. that don't really resemble a 'road' at all.

_________________
Image
Trolleybi! Trucks and Buses -- Docklands -- Unspooled -- MLSS


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:18 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:05 pm
Posts: 5243
Location: Canada
supermop wrote:
HAUL is a roadtype that Andy has created for his NRT fork of Road Hog ...
That's what I was looking for. 8)
Quote:
yes, your giant tonka truck could trundle down mainstreet,
Don't be giving my grandsons any ideas. :twisted:
Quote:
The talk about recoding HEQs is primarily about forbidding the giant mining trucks from running on ROAD, which is now possible. HEQs will run as is in NRT without issue, just on regular ROAD compatible types. There are other more esoteric cases imagined for incompatible types as well, like pedestrian malls that allow no vehicles, or chairlifts/bucket lines etc. that don't really resemble a 'road' at all.
Rather than opening up and tinkering with an existing RV GRF, would it be possible to write a property modifying GRF?

A big thanks supermop. :bow:

_________________
wallyweb on tt-forums: Screenshots - Projects - Releases
wallyweb on Simuscape: Projects - Releases
Other Stuff: TTDPatch 2.6 "Nightly" download - cirdan's OpenTTD branch (New Map Features)
Screenshot Of The Month Contest Winner: August 2015 - Tied May 2016 - January 2018


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:34 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:15 am
Posts: 1023
Location: Fitzroy North - 96
wallyweb wrote:
Rather than opening up and tinkering with an existing RV GRF, would it be possible to write a property modifying GRF?


I'm sure that would be technically possible, but seeing as HEQs (and many other sets) are written in NFO from years before NRT was even conceived, writing such a grf would probably be more difficult than either rewriting the original grf in NML, or just figuring out what bits need to be added to set road types in NFO and pasting those into the code.

I also thought about rewriting egrvts for NRT, but ultimately decided that someday Zephyris would get around to it, and in the meantime it would be faster to make OGFX++RVs for NRT. That got way out of hand with scope creep etc leading to a grf that still has no good name.

_________________
Image
Trolleybi! Trucks and Buses -- Docklands -- Unspooled -- MLSS


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:47 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:43 am
Posts: 2003
Location: Venezia - Italia
Kruemelchen wrote:
But, on a side note, I was also able to convert bridges which are owned by cities directly to HAUL. This shouldn't be possible I guess.

Fixed for next build :wink:

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage
ImageImage
newgrf tests, see: newgrf test topic, my patches: Wolf01's Hire Point
Italian TTD Forum
Wiki Page


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 469 posts ]  Go to page Previous 111 12 13 14 1524 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000-2018 phpBB Limited

Copyright © Owen Rudge/The Transport Tycoon Forums 2001-2018.
Hosted by Zernebok Hosting.