NotRoadTypes

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by STD »

andythenorth wrote:
STD wrote:How are things going with the project - NotRoadTypes?
If it helps, the github page shows commits for the NRT branch https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoad ... tram-types
That branch is then built once a day as https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt - changes can be tested in that build of OpenTTD. ;)
Thanks for the great response to the message :) ! And you plan to add new road types for testing in the trunk? Many users really want to try in the game it's a miracle, what you made :D .
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by andythenorth »

STD wrote:And you plan to add new road types for testing in the trunk? Many users really want to try in the game it's a miracle, what you made :D
Testing is best done with the RATT build linked here https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt . It's about as 'official' as a fork can be, built on the OpenTTD compile farm, with trunk merged into it regularly, and it builds for a wide range of platforms. It really is just 'trunk + NotRoadTypes' :)

It won't get to trunk until it's more done and more tested. But then it probably will, barring accidents ;)

I can't speak for devs, but I would prefer to see more of this approach with 'public fork in github' + 'official builds on OpenTTD compile farm'. (It's really a feature branch, except that github implements it as a fork).

The primary concern for trunk OpenTTD is pretty much stability. I think there's a reluctance to commit anything that risks instability or bug reports, because it's (1) bad (2) it causes support issues (and sometimes angry whining from players) which, bluntly, destroy motivation to work on the game :)

Meanwhile patchpacks tend not to be a good place to try out single-feature branches, because they combine a lot of stuff together, and tend to be unstable. ;)

A dedicated build for a feature branch lets players (and newgrf authors) test the feature in isolation from other changes, whilst also being easy to keep in sync with trunk. Using a public location like github (or similar) just reduces hassle with setting up a repo.

Truebrain put work into the CF to make these builds possible, so it was good to be able to test it out with NRT :D
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by NekoMaster »

I would probably use the RATT Build more if there where a little more in the way of road types. I do like how theres Trams and Electrified Trams now, so one can save a few bucks and stick with steam or fireless trams.

For now it would just be nice to have some basic road types with speed limits, like gravel (low speed), regular roads (medium speed), and highway roads (high speed). More intricate stuff can come later when things are more polished.

For now I'm just playing around with my new Arma 3 Altis and Strais height map as well as my Africa height map with the OpenTTD Spring Patch Pack.
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by supermop »

NekoMaster wrote:I would probably use the RATT Build more if there where a little more in the way of road types. I do like how theres Trams and Electrified Trams now, so one can save a few bucks and stick with steam or fireless trams.

For now it would just be nice to have some basic road types with speed limits, like gravel (low speed), regular roads (medium speed), and highway roads (high speed). More intricate stuff can come later when things are more polished.

For now I'm just playing around with my new Arma 3 Altis and Strais height map as well as my Africa height map with the OpenTTD Spring Patch Pack.
Well the problem is that there are not many newgrfs available to use these features yet, and they will only become available as people author them. I hope this discussion will inspire some others to take up the challenge of creating a few more proof of concept grfs so we can start thoroughly testing the patch. NRT is honestly the first thing to inspire me to try to create a grf in seven years, so hopefully a few others are also encouraged. To be honest, coding docklands was not as difficult as I had feared - and don't understand anything at all about nml, etc. Personally I am not sure varied speed limit roads would be immediately useful or interesting to me in game, so I haven't tried mocking up that functionality yet. There isn't anything to stop someone who is curious about speedlimits from putting together a quick test grf.

I'm very grateful for the work of those who are developing NRT - they've already given us the most commonly discussed potential road type features like support for speed limits, varying intro dates, varying graphics, and various power supplies, and they continue to work on adding new functionality as well!
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by NekoMaster »

I would make a GRF myself but I recently got a new job and I have plans to go back to school. So I have little time or motivation to learn new NML stuff at the moment to create my own Road Type GRF.

The only reason I ever wanted road types to begin with is so that by default all roads the game generates are speed reduced so that slower busses and trucks get less of a penalty versus faster busses/coaches and express trucks, which would benefit from a higher speed limit like a highway. It just feels so weird to have busses zipping along through cities at over 120 km\h when most busses I've seen in North America or Europe barely reach the speed limit because of their frequent stops and lack of sports car like acceleration.

I guess I'll just have to wait until someone can make a simple road type GRF to really test out RATT with multiple road types with different graphics and speeds.
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by supermop »

My Docklands roadtypes set is licensed GPL2, so people can use the source for that as a foundation for a set of their own if they want. You can find the source here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75960
NekoMaster wrote:I would make a GRF myself but I recently got a new job and I have plans to go back to school. So I have little time or motivation to learn new NML stuff at the moment to create my own Road Type GRF.
Let me be clear that I have not yet 'learned' NML, neither now nor in the past - I have a lot of trouble really understanding code of any kind, so I mostly copied and tweaked example code and asked questions, mostly over lunch breaks and late at night. My job here in the city typically occupies 50-54 hours a week, depending on project deadlines, so it took a very specific, very strong inspiration for an idea I wanted to see in game to get me working on this. Hopefully another author exists who feels similarly strong about speed limits, and creates or modifies a grf to limit the speed of ROAD etc. As far as I can tell, this is certainly possible with the current state of NotRoadTypes.

There are also not yet any sets that allow players to test dual-mode or trolleybuses, nor various incompatible gauges or power supplies for trams. For now, NotRoadTypes is still very new, and many of the authors of various road or road vehicle sets have not even been active on the forums since the fork has debuted, let alone have had time to fork their sets for testing if they desire. I am sure as time goes on we will see more NewGRFs out there that explore the various possibilities.

EDIT: Now there is a grf for trolley buses! Shameless plug for my OGFX+ style trolley trucks and buses: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=75963
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Quast65 »

Very interesting!!
A big thumbs up to all involved in this development!! :bow:
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by arikover »

A question:

According to the documentation, in order to make a regular road tile in town, road/tram underlays are applied on top of the "grass/paved sidewalk". Shouldn't it be the other way round? If underlays graphics are broader than the sidewalk mask, the sidewalk will not be visible any longer, right? If the sidewalk mask is applied on top of the underlays, the problem disappear. Correct?
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by frosch »

arikover wrote:Shouldn't it be the other way round?
If that would be an option, then yes. However there are no separate sprites for walkways. To make RoadTypes work with any existing graphic sets we have to draw the walkway graphics (which include the default roads) at the bottom.
Btw. this is how tram sprites worked for the past 10 years.
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by arikover »

frosch wrote:To make RoadTypes work with any existing graphic sets we have to draw the walkway graphics (which include the default roads) at the bottom. Btw. this is how tram sprites worked for the past 10 years.
I was aware of that, but seeing the documentation, I thought there was a special new tile introduced with the patch, with only the sidewalk mask.
That means the whole baseset road tile is used as base tile, and then everything is pasted onto it. Thanks for the explanation!
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Captain Rand »

I'm just wondering, why is this "Not" RoadTypes?

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by burty »

Captain Rand wrote:I'm just wondering, why is this "Not" RoadTypes?

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At a guess, same as it is no ai and no go(als)?


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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by andythenorth »

Captain Rand wrote:I'm just wondering, why is this "Not" RoadTypes?
Prior to NRT, a 'RoadTypes' spec was discussed seriously at least twice that I am aware of. Both times there was a failure to agree on the spec, rather than problems implementing it. Additional to that Peter1138 'had a patch somewhere' for RoadTypes (probably lost). :D

So RoadTypes appeared to be impossible; the solution to that was NotRoadTypes.

Yes it's word games, but now we actually have a new feature eh? So eh. :twisted:
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by NekoMaster »

andythenorth wrote:
Captain Rand wrote:I'm just wondering, why is this "Not" RoadTypes?
Prior to NRT, a 'RoadTypes' spec was discussed seriously at least twice that I am aware of. Both times there was a failure to agree on the spec, rather than problems implementing it. Additional to that Peter1138 'had a patch somewhere' for RoadTypes (probably lost). :D

So RoadTypes appeared to be impossible; the solution to that was NotRoadTypes.

Yes it's word games, but now we actually have a new feature eh? So eh. :twisted:
Honestly, after so many projects from you Andy, I expect anything you come up with or start to have a funny or interesting name.
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by Captain Rand »

andythenorth wrote:
Captain Rand wrote:I'm just wondering, why is this "Not" RoadTypes?
Prior to NRT, a 'RoadTypes' spec was discussed seriously at least twice that I am aware of. Both times there was a failure to agree on the spec, rather than problems implementing it. Additional to that Peter1138 'had a patch somewhere' for RoadTypes (probably lost). :D

So RoadTypes appeared to be impossible; the solution to that was NotRoadTypes.

Yes it's word games, but now we actually have a new feature eh? So eh. :twisted:
I get it. Nice wordplay. Thanks Andy.

I can see this becoming one of those things that (for me, at least) the game would be unplayable without (Infrastructure Sharing being another). I hope to see a patchpack based on the NRT fork, and yes, I know I'm probably in for a long wait but that's OK, it'll be worth it. Making it into trunk would be even better.

A huge thank you to everybody working on NRT. This is brilliant!

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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by NekoMaster »

I just thought of something for a GRF someone could try sometime. What about Bus Only Roads for a Bus Rapid Transit System, of course it'll only allow busses (dunno how that would be done though, perhaps only allowing vehicles that transport passengers/tourists)

I was also thinking that a Bus Only Road or BRT Road might give busses a speed increase incase there aren't speed limits on other road types, or if other road types are included with speed limits, BRT road would allow busses to run at their full speed




Lastly, unrelated to the above, I wonder if anyone will ever try to tackle an Elevated Rail "Tram Type", though I dunno how OpenTTD or NotRoadTypes would handle having sprites above roads higher then they normally would be for tram lines. Though if custom catanery graphics are supported for each tram type, perhaps someone could cheat and change the catanery graphics instead to make the Elevated rail look "elevated" above the road and ground.

(then theres the issue of vehicle grfs that would support being offset so they appear to run on the elevated rail rather then riding on the road)
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by andythenorth »

NekoMaster wrote:I was also thinking that a Bus Only Road or BRT Road might give busses a speed increase incase there aren't speed limits on other road types, or if other road types are included with speed limits, BRT road would allow busses to run at their full speed
Segregated busway makes sense. I'd put reality aside, and use it provide buses with very high capacity per unit length, and fast loading, as that will have most benefit in cities. It will be a pain in the arse to build it in cities though alongside normal roads, similar to Iron Horse metro. Alternatively, express busway between urban areas with higher speed seems straightforward.
Lastly, unrelated to the above, I wonder if anyone will ever try to tackle an Elevated Rail "Tram Type"
Zephyris made urban suspended monorail, implemented as tram. viewtopic.php?f=26&t=38413 It works, but it clips with tunnels, bridges and catenary, and that's non-solvable (it's a physical size issue, not a code issue). ;)
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by supermop »

Proud to report my first NRT crash, occurred when unpausing a game after building a lot of nice stuff to show in a screenshot for Unspooled:
[+] Spoiler

Code: Select all

Added NewGRF: GRF ID 9787EAFE, checksum 5C21FA28967281813B38593A8B56F78C, filename: road-hog\road-hog.grf (md5sum matches)
Tick 2287: game loaded
Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 44450601, checksum 672F213ED5C0A850FEE748E86A915F14, filename: spool.grf (md5sum matches)
---- gamelog end ----

*** End of OpenTTD Crash Report ***

Decoded stack trace:
[00] openttd              0x00007FF6C5064DD8
[01] openttd              0x00007FF6C515C8AF
[02] openttd              0x00007FF6C50613A6
[03] openttd              0x00007FF6C503648A
[04] openttd              0x00007FF6C5036883
[05] openttd              0x00007FF6C52EA5EC
[06] openttd              0x00007FF6C5034474
[07] openttd              0x00007FF6C52ECCDD
[08] openttd              0x00007FF6C53D9130
[09] KERNEL32             0x00007FFDC7008364 BaseThreadInitThunk + 20
[10] ntdll                0x00007FFDC71170D1 RtlUserThreadStart + 33

*** End of additional info ***
crash.dmp
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crash.sav
(40.11 KiB) Downloaded 93 times
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by STD »

And you can create one-way paths for electrified tracks? That it was in real life. Everywhere can't be a two-way electrified track. When, for example, the tram takes place on the ring or going on the road with one-way or-two-way traffic.

Examples in the screenshots :)

Similarly, the question on roads: is it possible for OpenTTD to create a road with one lane? For example, the roads at interchanges
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0_fe53a_b6209ec3_orig.jpg
0_fe53a_b6209ec3_orig.jpg (174.34 KiB) Viewed 4238 times
0_c237d_1ceac9d7_XXL.png
0_c237d_1ceac9d7_XXL.png (649.92 KiB) Viewed 4238 times
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Re: NotRoadTypes

Post by NekoMaster »

supermop wrote:Proud to report my first NRT crash, occurred when unpausing a game after building a lot of nice stuff to show in a screenshot for Unspooled:
[+] Spoiler

Code: Select all

Added NewGRF: GRF ID 9787EAFE, checksum 5C21FA28967281813B38593A8B56F78C, filename: road-hog\road-hog.grf (md5sum matches)
Tick 2287: game loaded
Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 44450601, checksum 672F213ED5C0A850FEE748E86A915F14, filename: spool.grf (md5sum matches)
---- gamelog end ----

*** End of OpenTTD Crash Report ***

Decoded stack trace:
[00] openttd              0x00007FF6C5064DD8
[01] openttd              0x00007FF6C515C8AF
[02] openttd              0x00007FF6C50613A6
[03] openttd              0x00007FF6C503648A
[04] openttd              0x00007FF6C5036883
[05] openttd              0x00007FF6C52EA5EC
[06] openttd              0x00007FF6C5034474
[07] openttd              0x00007FF6C52ECCDD
[08] openttd              0x00007FF6C53D9130
[09] KERNEL32             0x00007FFDC7008364 BaseThreadInitThunk + 20
[10] ntdll                0x00007FFDC71170D1 RtlUserThreadStart + 33

*** End of additional info ***
crash.dmp
crash.sav
Whats that GRF there? I can see theres different types of roads there. Is there some where it can be downloaded from?
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