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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:05 pm 
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andythenorth wrote:
Why would buses be implemented as trams? It makes very little sense to me.

I thought of it as a simplification, so that trolleybuses can run on any road if catenary is available :)
Which, to me, seems like a tram without rails but using bus sprites.
Additionally it would solve the problem of how to distinguish road catenary and tram catenary, since there would only be one catenary available via tramtype layer on top of the road.

Although, if roadtype vehicles could check if a tramtype catenary is present, that would solve that problem, too.

My other idea was to have just 1 kind of catenary which could be build upon any road- and/or tramtype.
But then, if NewGRF authors do want to implement different voltages etc. this would not be straightforwardly possible.

It's all just ideas, though :)

I really look forward creating some more NewGRFs when the new implementation is ready :D
Especially road-side decorations ("pavement") :wink:

acs121 wrote:
As i said, why not enumerate all the roadtypes you have in mind ? People are talking about elevated subways and crazy stuff, we should list it.

NewGRF authors will always discover new "indispensable" *types :lol:
I'd go for taking one step after the other...


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Kruemelchen wrote:
andythenorth wrote:
Why would buses be implemented as trams? It makes very little sense to me.

I thought of it as a simplification, so that trolleybuses can run on any road if catenary is available :)
Which, to me, seems like a tram without rails but using bus sprites.
Additionally it would solve the problem of how to distinguish road catenary and tram catenary, since there would only be one catenary available via tramtype layer on top of the road.

Although, if roadtype vehicles could check if a tramtype catenary is present, that would solve that problem, too.

My other idea was to have just 1 kind of catenary which could be build upon any road- and/or tramtype.
But then, if NewGRF authors do want to implement different voltages etc. this would not be straightforwardly possible.

It's all just ideas, though :)

Just another idea: Separate tram lines and catenaries from each other, which takes just two bits. That way, we could have plain tram lines for horse and steam trams, catenaries with no rails for trolley buses, and rails+catenaries for electric trams. Legacy GRFs with trams should of course always take the latter as default.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:19 pm 
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So, at the beggining, for roads we have road, heavy-haul road and road with catenary.
Then, for tramtypes yet we only have tramway and electrified tramway.


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:51 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
So, at the beggining, for roads we have road, heavy-haul road and road with catenary.
Then, for tramtypes yet we only have tramway and electrified tramway.
I'm sure the developers' internal code will be very generic and will not provide the actual road types you suggest. The specific road types and supporting features such as catenary would only be determined by the GRFs created by authors and artists.

All the internal code would say is "Yes, you can have road types. Yes, you can have tram types. Yes, you can have catenaries for trams and/or trolleys. Yes, you can have properties such as names, cost, maximum/minimum speed, cargoes, etc. Yes, you can draw the sprites."

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:59 am 
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Exactly, the intention of NRT is not to add new roadtypes, its to add grf support for developers to add new road types via grf.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:15 am 
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wallyweb wrote:
acs121 wrote:
So, at the beggining, for roads we have road, heavy-haul road and road with catenary.
Then, for tramtypes yet we only have tramway and electrified tramway.
I'm sure the developers' internal code will be very generic and will not provide the actual road types you suggest. The specific road types and supporting features such as catenary would only be determined by the GRFs created by authors and artists.

All the internal code would say is "Yes, you can have road types. Yes, you can have tram types. Yes, you can have catenaries for trams and/or trolleys. Yes, you can have properties such as names, cost, maximum/minimum speed, cargoes, etc. Yes, you can draw the sprites."


The GRF itself, contains road and heavy-haul road, as well as tramway and tramway with catenary. We could at least include trolleybus, and the issue is here and we were talking about it : how to have trolley / tram combined ?


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 am 
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acs121 wrote:
how to have trolley / tram combined ?
Now you've got it. :D
I have never seen real life trolleys and trams sharing the same road, but I have seen them in the same city (Toronto) so one should be able to have both in the same GRF which brings us back to Wolf01's question ... When one sees a catenary in a game, is it for a tram or is it for a trolley? My suggestion is for the GRF's artist to draw them differently.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Trams and trolleys usually doesn't share same road alongside, due to incompatibility of current flow,
but there are crossings of trolleybuses and tram lines in many towns - it should be possible.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:08 am 
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To be more precise: In RL trams and trolleys can share the same road on different lanes.


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:49 am 
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Actually, in OpenTTD you have only 1 tile for 2 tramtracks, or 2 trolleybus lanes. It's an evidence you can get them on separate lanes then.


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:32 am 
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McZapkie wrote:
Trams and trolleys usually doesn't share same road alongside, due to incompatibility of current flow,
but there are crossings of trolleybuses and tram lines in many towns - it should be possible.

So, if they can't run on the same catenary / electric current, then I'd go with wallywebs suggestion to separate both graphically, which, ideally, should be done by GRFs :)

acs121 wrote:
Actually, in OpenTTD you have only 1 tile for 2 tramtracks, or 2 trolleybus lanes. It's an evidence you can get them on separate lanes then.

ATM it's not possible to separate the 2 lanes of a tile, so no 1-way-road for trams (1 or 2 lanes) possible.
It should, however, be possible to run both trolleybus and trams on the same tile if you build the the tramway over the trolleybusway.
Only, in the current implementation, you cannot have 2 catenary graphics exist on the same tile.
(as seen with this bug, where the 'nonvisible' catenary graphics of the road overrides the catenary of the tramway on top of it)

Because of that, I'd suggest, like wallyweb already did, to separate both graphics-wise.


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:08 am 
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wallyweb wrote:
acs121 wrote:
how to have trolley / tram combined ?
My suggestion is for the GRF's artist to draw them differently.


In my grf, they are drawn differently! One conductor for tram wire, two for trolleybus wire, just like real life. Trolleybuses cannot use regular overheadwire as they cannot use rails as a return path for current - hence the two trolley poles and two wires. At least as far as I am concerned, this distinction should be retained - a tile can have wires for rubber tired buses, or for trams on rails, or both, or neither, but trolley buses can't take power from tram wires, nor vis versa.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:47 pm 
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supermop wrote:
wallyweb wrote:
acs121 wrote:
how to have trolley / tram combined ?
My suggestion is for the GRF's artist to draw them differently.


In my grf, they are drawn differently! One conductor for tram wire, two for trolleybus wire, just like real life. Trolleybuses cannot use regular overheadwire as they cannot use rails as a return path for current - hence the two trolley poles and two wires. At least as far as I am concerned, this distinction should be retained - a tile can have wires for rubber tired buses, or for trams on rails, or both, or neither, but trolley buses can't take power from tram wires, nor vis versa.


Actually in your NewGRF, the Electrified Road being considered as a road type, you can lay any tramtracks over it, be it with or without catenary. This isn't a problem though, don't worry, OpenTTD itself has some realism issues, but we can play with it. And we wouldn't like to have to destroy the buildings on the roadside to build a tramline.


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:41 am 
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acs121 wrote:
supermop wrote:
wallyweb wrote:
My suggestion is for the GRF's artist to draw them differently.


In my grf, they are drawn differently! One conductor for tram wire, two for trolleybus wire, just like real life. Trolleybuses cannot use regular overheadwire as they cannot use rails as a return path for current - hence the two trolley poles and two wires. At least as far as I am concerned, this distinction should be retained - a tile can have wires for rubber tired buses, or for trams on rails, or both, or neither, but trolley buses can't take power from tram wires, nor vis versa.


Actually in your NewGRF, the Electrified Road being considered as a road type, you can lay any tramtracks over it, be it with or without catenary. This isn't a problem though, don't worry, OpenTTD itself has some realism issues, but we can play with it. And we wouldn't like to have to destroy the buildings on the roadside to build a tramline.


Of course, that is indeed the intended behavior, I don't really see why it would be otherwise - Road with wires for trolleybus is of course a type of road, and tramway of any type is a tramway... While it is very rare in the real world, and a bit of a mess to wire up, it's not impossible for two-conductor wires to cross, or even run along with single-conductor supply.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:07 am 
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Innnsbruck, Austria used to have roads shared by trams and trolleybuses, before they discontinued the trolleybus system a few years ago in order to extend the tram line.

Here's an image with both wires and tracks clearly visible:
Image

As for the game, I agree with supermop's suggestion - have distinct wires for trams and trolleybuses, but allow them to overlap.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:21 am 
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That share was possible as the trolleys and trams had the same way to get electricity : a trolley pole.
However, most tram systems, mostly the French and English ones, have trams getting elctricity via a pantograph, and it's the same for most of west Germany. This is due to the tram systems planning an eventual train-tram (i'm talking about France, it might be different reasons for England or Germany).

Also, i wonder if train-trams would be possible with NRT ? It is a concept that a lot of us players would surely like, as street-running doesn't exist in that game.


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Hello

acs121 wrote:
That share was possible as the trolleys and trams had the same way to get electricity : a trolley pole.

That's IMHO to generalised.

acs121 wrote:
However, most tram systems, mostly the French and English ones, have trams getting elctricity via a pantograph, and it's the same for most of west Germany.

Wire systems for trolleys and trams are fundamental different. The trams need "only" one-pole-wires because the other electrical pole is the rail. Trolleys have no rail as second pole. So they need in contrast to a typical tram system a two-wire-overhead-system.

That's spottable on Emperor Jakes photo. I accentuated the tram wire in yellow and the trolley wires in blue. Please compare with Emperor Jakes photo, especially the curvature of the tram tracks.

Attachment:
tram-trolley-wires.jpg
tram-trolley-wires.jpg [ 24.7 KiB | Viewed 167 times ]


If I read it correct, it is wished to be able to distinguish between the system in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Of course we'd like to distinguish it. Already done a test-game (1830-2050) with some friends on RATT, along some nice NRT GRFs (Patched Road-Hog, Trolleybi, Docklands, Country Roads...) and i once trolled someone as he wanted to put a trolley-line on my tram line...turned out i never converted, and his trolleybuses were running full of passengers, but never going at the good stop... :twisted:

Don't worry, i converted the road just after. But there should be a way to prevent this kind of thing from happening...


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 Post subject: Re: NotRoadTypes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:22 pm 
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The same could be said for rail infra-sharing. I could allow someone on my railway but not electrify. There's no need to change that, just relly on cooperation.

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